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Post by shamwow on Jul 31, 2018 8:23:11 GMT -5
Wow, thank you all so much for your insight and advice. I hear you. I HAVE to start talking more and not hold back, "suck it up, muster up all your courage, and get the ball rolling" as nyartgal said. ( nyartgal I do have more intimacy with my dental hygienist! That made me laugh.) @workingonit, this struck a chord: "being authentic and real with him is ultimately less hurtful then 'sparing' him for a few more years." As did your comment about kids picking up on more than you think. So true. Confirmed by beachguy, which totally made me tear up. I could personally never have an open marriage, but I can see an amiable divorce that puts my son’s needs first. I still wonder if there's something I can do to be more attracted to my husband though. I know a lot of you are saying, fat chance. Maybe the conversations will bring a level of intimacy that leads to something. Who knows. I don't think we'll ever get to a point where sex is mind blowing, but maybe there's a point where we have enough intimacy to keep us fulfilled. He's traveling these next few days, but I'll talk to him when he gets back and start there. bballgirl - I'm so glad you mentioned that book, Mating in Captivity. I heard about it awhile back and it sounded interesting, but I haven't read it yet. It will be the next book I read. shamwow - without this turning into a post about feminism, it was an interesting challenge you presented. I think we agree more than we disagree. I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. It was my point actually. I wasn't associating my lack of desire for my husband with feminism. I was associating that part of "a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years" includes that a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? To the people who liked his post, do you not agree? At any rate, if you don't consider that an aspect of feminism, then perhaps it's at least an off shoot, or empowerment stemming from feminism. I imagine you can see the connection. I do think it's a bit of stretch to say I entered the marriage dishonestly though. I think we all wish we could have known then what we know now. Thank you all so much. Truly. Thank you for the thoughtful reply. And I probably did go too far in saying you entered the marriage dishonestly. In my situation, my ex DID enter the marriage dishonestly by faking a medical condition and childhood sexual abuse to refuse sex as soon as the rings were exchanged. It was a long 20 years and sometimes over-colors my thoughts. Again, my apologies. As to your question, I was actually talking with ballofconfusion this weekend about this subject. It was before you posted but quite pertinent. When a woman (or man for that matter - she was also refused for 25 years) stands before the world and makes those vows, he/she is making a willing choice. You vow to forsake all others but you ALSO vow to provide intimacy when your partner needs it. You can't have it both ways, although many partners of those on this site would like to. Of course this does not apply to one person holding th other down, hitting them, or being abusive (uh unless both parties get into those things). But many women DO hide behind feminism to avoid "duty sex". The reason this subject came up is because my ex often made my advances feel like I was molesting her just as she had been allegedly molested as a child (which I no longer believe happened). Male refusers of course do not have feminism to hide behind. They just use our society's fucked up concepts of female beauty to guilt their partners into believing that here is something wrong with them. In th end you have a decision. You can open the marriage (no go for you). You can stay without changes and watch it decay into something you both hate and regret (the path you're currently on). You can cheat without opening the marriage but you'll be living a lie and reap a hell of a whirlwind if you get caught. You can leave and start over honestly but with no guarantees. You coukd also have your husband make a choice from any of the above menu of options, catching you by surprise. Shitty choices, right? But those are the only ones you have. But thank you for the courage to post, knowing you were likely walking into the lions den.
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Post by workingonit on Jul 31, 2018 8:29:07 GMT -5
[[/quote] h, I'm glad you weighed in on this thread. In your own thread I tried to convince you of the hopelessness of your situation. But you are still smoking Hopium. And then this post comes along. Virtually indistinguishable from your story. You have as much chance of making things work as this OP's husband has of making things work. And this is true of almost everyone here. Perhaps everyone here who is stil trying and hasn't left yet.[/quote] I disagree. I think h has a unique story, as do we all really. I think that Mrs h went through a serious health crisis at a time when she should have been developing her sexuality and seeing the joy her body was capable of. I think our esteemed brother stepped in and was an amazing supporter during said crisis. I think this set up an unhealthy dynamic in their relationship. I believe they MiGHT be capable of redefining the bad pattern set up in the beginning if they both want to. It will take work but with health crisis over it may be possible. I believe she MIGHT be capable of developing her own sexual identity (they have been able to have good sex initiated by her) if she wants to and is willing to. I dont think she is inherently asexual as much as she is sexually immature with some baggage about her body due to young health crisis. The real questions are: does she want to? Is she willing to do the work? I think h is pretty realistic about his odds. But I, for one, am cheering him on and feeling mildly optimistic for him!
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Post by h on Jul 31, 2018 8:38:06 GMT -5
You can be a feminist all you want, but marriage is a sexual relationship. You chose to marry him and with that choice, you agreed to have sex with him. Marriage is accepting responsibility for meeting your spouse's needs. If sex wasn't high on your priority list, you shouldn't have married him in the first place. At the very least, you should have told him before you got married that you didn't feel attracted to him and let him decide if that was a deal breaker. He may not have married you knowing that you didn't desire him. I don't want to seem harsh because I respect your courage in posting in a potentially hostile forum. I'm seeing this from the other side. My W and I have been married for 10 years and nearly celibate the entire time. She has never had much interest in sex, turned me down on our wedding night and avoided me for almost all of our honeymoon. We're trying to work things out and making some progress but only after I gave her the ultimatum of sexlife or divorce. She's choosing to try. If I had known that she wasn't interested in sex from the beginning, we could have stayed friends and not gotten married. We didn't have to waste a decade of our lives being miserable. My W never gave me that choice back then. You never gave your H that choice either and here we both are. h , I'm glad you weighed in on this thread. In your own thread I tried to convince you of the hopelessness of your situation. But you are still smoking Hopium. And then this post comes along. Virtually indistinguishable from your story. You have as much chance of making things work as this OP's husband has of making things work. And this is true of almost everyone here. Perhaps everyone here who is stil trying and hasn't left yet. Similar yes, but not the same. My W is actually committed to working on it. My ultimatum was a wake up call for her. We're actually closer today than we have been in years precisely because of my time here and how I have learned to be more open and honest about my feelings. seekinganswers may not be able to save her situation but honest communication will help her and her H decide how best to proceed. Maybe they can separate and be good coparents like choosinghappy and her H. Maybe they will decide on an open marriage arrangement. Maybe they will get a sex therapist and try to fix their marriage. They won't know until they talk it through.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 31, 2018 8:40:22 GMT -5
h, I'm glad you weighed in on this thread. In your own thread I tried to convince you of the hopelessness of your situation. But you are still smoking Hopium. And then this post comes along. Virtually indistinguishable from your story. You have as much chance of making things work as this OP's husband has of making things work. And this is true of almost everyone here. Perhaps everyone here who is stil trying and hasn't left yet.[/quote] I disagree. I think h has a unique story, as do we all really. I think that Mrs h went through a serious health crisis at a time when she should have been developing her sexuality and seeing the joy her body was capable of. I think our esteemed brother stepped in and was an amazing supporter during said crisis. I think this set up an unhealthy dynamic in their relationship. I believe they MiGHT be capable of redefining the bad pattern set up in the beginning if they both want to. It will take work but with health crisis over it may be possible. I believe she MIGHT be capable of developing her own sexual identity (they have been able to have good sex initiated by her) if she wants to and is willing to. I dont think she is inherently asexual as much as she is sexually immature with some baggage about her body due to young health crisis. The real questions are: does she want to? Is she willing to do the work? I think h is pretty realistic about his odds. But I, for one, am cheering him on and feeling mildly optimistic for him![/quote] I agree with the difference in situation, and cheering on. From his posts though, I do not share the optimism. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 8:50:33 GMT -5
"A marriage is no different; it’s a package deal, not an á la carte offering."
It's an a la carte offering if both spouses allow the marriage to continue despite not having things that most people consider part of a marriage.
For instance, being sexless on one's honeymoon -- or having only one sexual activity on a honeymoon; being sexless for a year -- these things would be unacceptable to most people and they would end such a marriage. For most who end up here, such actions are acceptable enough that their marriages continue. Thus, despite their complaints, such an a la carte marriage is acceptable to most of the refused who end up here. Complaining about an uncomfortable or unwelcome situation isn't the same as leaving it.
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Post by h on Jul 31, 2018 8:52:10 GMT -5
h , I'm glad you weighed in on this thread. In your own thread I tried to convince you of the hopelessness of your situation. But you are still smoking Hopium. And then this post comes along. Virtually indistinguishable from your story. You have as much chance of making things work as this OP's husband has of making things work. And this is true of almost everyone here. Perhaps everyone here who is stil trying and hasn't left yet.[/quote] I disagree. I think h has a unique story, as do we all really. I think that Mrs h went through a serious health crisis at a time when she should have been developing her sexuality and seeing the joy her body was capable of. I think our esteemed brother stepped in and was an amazing supporter during said crisis. I think this set up an unhealthy dynamic in their relationship. I believe they MiGHT be capable of redefining the bad pattern set up in the beginning if they both want to. It will take work but with health crisis over it may be possible. I believe she MIGHT be capable of developing her own sexual identity (they have been able to have good sex initiated by her) if she wants to and is willing to. I dont think she is inherently asexual as much as she is sexually immature with some baggage about her body due to young health crisis. The real questions are: does she want to? Is she willing to do the work? I think h is pretty realistic about his odds. But I, for one, am cheering him on and feeling mildly optimistic for him![/quote] Thanks workingonit for the vote of confidence. I like your assessment of her as sexually immature and I think it fits. In our early relationship before marriage, her life was consumed by her very real and life-threatening health issues. That may have inhibited her development into a complete sexually aware adult. Since those health issues are behind her, now she is starting to figure out things that most people figure out in their 20's. Delayed sexual development.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 31, 2018 9:13:54 GMT -5
h , I'm glad you weighed in on this thread. In your own thread I tried to convince you of the hopelessness of your situation. But you are still smoking Hopium. And then this post comes along. Virtually indistinguishable from your story. You have as much chance of making things work as this OP's husband has of making things work. And this is true of almost everyone here. Perhaps everyone here who is stil trying and hasn't left yet. Similar yes, but not the same. My W is actually committed to working on it. My ultimatum was a wake up call for her. We're actually closer today than we have been in years precisely because of my time here and how I have learned to be more open and honest about my feelings. seekinganswers may not be able to save her situation but honest communication will help her and her H decide how best to proceed. Maybe they can separate and be good coparents like choosinghappy and her H. Maybe they will decide on an open marriage arrangement. Maybe they will get a sex therapist and try to fix their marriage. They won't know until they talk it through. The big difference may simply be that seekinganswer's husband has not given her the fuck me or else Ultimatum. The big similarity is that both married without having any sexual attraction, whatsoever, for their chosen husband. And it is highly, highly unlikely that either ever will.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 31, 2018 9:46:06 GMT -5
I disagree. I think h has a unique story, as do we all really. There are certainly different categories of SMs. One of those categories is when the sex was never good, from the beginning. Especially when it is a Virgin Horror Story. When the refused was turned down on the wedding night. And the marriage was barely consummated (if at all) by the end of the honeymoon. When that is the main story line it is difficult to be optimistic. MIGHT = Smoking Hopium. And as crass as it may sound, the WHY does not matter. Nor does correlation = causation.
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Post by csl on Jul 31, 2018 10:53:59 GMT -5
I feel like I've been living for my son, and honestly would. He's my world. And because our marriage is low conflict, my son isn't affected negatively by it. He isn't seeing a loving romantic relationship, but my husband and I are compatible and nice to each other in all ways non-romantic. But I don't know how much longer this can go on. I don't think my husband would ever say that he wants out, despite me being clear about how I feel. He's optimistic things will change. But they aren't. And I don't know if there's anything I can do to change how I feel. I feel like an absolute failure. Not only to myself, but to people I love the most in the world. What can I do? This is going to sound harsh, but here goes... "Person", not people. You say your son is your world, and that you were happiest when he was born, being a mom. There's an old story about a kids who was asked if he loved his brother; he answered, "Nah, but I'm used to him." You've got it backwards - your husband is supposed to be your world, not your son. You love your son, you're just used to your husband. Until you come to grips with this and decide how to deal with what you've created, you will continue to experience guilt. Which isn't a bad thing, actually. The good thing is that you are experiencing feelings of guilt because you don't like cruelty, but recognize the cruelty of what you have done/are doing to him. The fact that you can feel guilt for his pain is actually a positive; it's an indication that a small spark of caring is still burning. The task for you and your counselor will be to find a way to fan it into a flame. After all, it's only 11 years away before your son goes off to college, and there's just the two of you.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 31, 2018 12:18:53 GMT -5
I feel like I've been living for my son, and honestly would. He's my world. And because our marriage is low conflict, my son isn't affected negatively by it. He isn't seeing a loving romantic relationship, but my husband and I are compatible and nice to each other in all ways non-romantic. But I don't know how much longer this can go on. I don't think my husband would ever say that he wants out, despite me being clear about how I feel. He's optimistic things will change. But they aren't. And I don't know if there's anything I can do to change how I feel. I feel like an absolute failure. Not only to myself, but to people I love the most in the world. What can I do? This is going to sound harsh, but here goes... "Person", not people. You say your son is your world, and that you were happiest when he was born, being a mom. There's an old story about a kids who was asked if he loved his brother; he answered, "Nah, but I'm used to him." You've got it backwards - your husband is supposed to be your world, not your son. You love your son, you're just used to your husband. Until you come to grips with this and decide how to deal with what you've created, you will continue to experience guilt. Which isn't a bad thing, actually. The good thing is that you are experiencing feelings of guilt because you don't like cruelty, but recognize the cruelty of what you have done/are doing to him. The fact that you can feel guilt for his pain is actually a positive; it's an indication that a small spark of caring is still burning. The task for you and your counselor will be to find a way to fan it into a flame. After all, it's only 11 years away before your son goes off to college, and there's just the two of you. Bingo!
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 31, 2018 14:34:06 GMT -5
Welcome seekinganswers . I'll echo others and say it was brave for you to post here and be open to receiving criticism from those of us who are on the refused side of things. Thank you. I think it's beneficial for us to be able to hear all sides. h tagged me in this thread and I'm glad he did because in ways our situations are similar except that I was the refused one in my marriage. My ex loved me and knew I'd be a great mother and partner so he married me. But I have since learned that he never had any real interest in having a sexual/intimate relationship with me. Yes, it was painful to learn that, just as I'm sure it is painful for your H if you are able to be that candid with him, but knowing that also helped me. Armed with that info, I was able to make the best decision for myself and I decided I didn't want to be married to someone who didn't feel that way about me. Despite the pain, I appreciated learning the truth. You being truly honest with your H also gives him the power to decide for himself what path he wants his life to take. I have since learned that divorce is not the end of the world. You say your son is your world. He would still be your world even if you were to divorce. And I personally disagree with your statement that: "because our marriage is low conflict, my son isn't affected negatively by it." Kids know and pick up on more than you think. There are many many stories here of people who ended up in SMs after witnessing their parents' loveless marriages. One of my reasons for leaving was precisely because I don't want my son growing up thinking an affection-free marriage like what we had is normal. Ours was very low conflict as well but "low conflict" as the high point of my marriage is not good enough for me and it's not good enough for my son once he is someday ready to choose a partner. It is very possible to be good, amicable co-parents; I am proof of that. It sounds like you and your H would have the potential for that as well, as long as you don't let your marriage deteriorate to a point where you hate each other due to your H's deep-seated resentment for you because of your inability to love him in the way he needs and wants (and deserves) to be loved. I think the most important part of your post is this: "It's not that I don't need or want sex/ intimacy. I do. Sometimes desperately. I just don't feel the connection with my husband." You do want sex and intimacy but you don't want it with the man you pledged to have it with for the rest of your life. THAT is your reality. You are not confused as your post title states. It's sad and it's painful though, I know. But if you haven't been able to change that yet, even while you feel badly about causing your H pain, I don't think you're going to. You say: "Well, we'd all be hurt by me leaving." But the fact is, you are also hurting your H by staying and refusing him. And aren't you feeling hurt right now too? The truth is sometimes ugly. But that's no reason not to face it. It's good that you guys are in therapy so you can learn how to better communicate but therapy will not make you sexually desire your H when you don't and never have.
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 31, 2018 14:35:50 GMT -5
If the OPs h is anything like many here, he could have browsed this forum at the very least.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 31, 2018 14:52:14 GMT -5
If the OPs h is anything like many here, he just could have browsed this forum at the very least. Perhaps he isn’t ready yet. Just like most everyone here could have Googled “sexless marriage” years before they did. It is also possible that he is getting his needs met outside the marriage. Maybe he’s been doing it for years.
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Post by flashjohn on Jul 31, 2018 16:18:40 GMT -5
Hi seekinganswers, thank you for posting so honestly. I know you probably never thought this would be an issue when you got married, but now it is. It really sounds to me that you just don't love your husband. There is nothing wrong with this. My refuser did not love me either. The truth is if you loved him, you would want to fuck him. I spent the most of three decades thinking that if I just tried hard enough or did the right things, my refuser would want to fuck me. No matter what I did, she always found a reason not to. The hard truth is she just was not attracted to me. It is nothing personal, she just wasn't. The problem was that she wanted to be in a marriage with no sex. I was not willing to live that way. So I can tell you that if you are not able to find the desire to fuck your husband, you need to let him know so he can make the decision as to whether he wants to stay with you. You can still be co-parents and friends, but a marriage without sex cannot survive as long as one of the spouses wants to fuck.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 16:32:16 GMT -5
“You can still be co-parents and friends, but a marriage without sex cannot survive as long as one of the spouses wants to fuck.”
Not true. There are people who never divorce or cheat despite decades of sexlessness in their marriages. Some such marriages even include physical or emotional abuse. Yet, the refused stay. Some here are in such marriages and do not appear bent on leaving.
That my be the case with the op. Her h may not cheat but may keep wishing and trying bacon scented candles....
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