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Post by seekinganswers on Jul 30, 2018 9:46:56 GMT -5
Hi all, I just registered and have been reading through many of the posts which I am finding really helpful, thank you. Still, I'm not sure I'm in the right place because I read enough to wonder if I'll be booed out of here as I am technically a "refuser". But I have to say, I relate so much to a lot of what is said here. There is some really sage advice from you all, and I'm hoping that you can understand where I'm coming from and give me your two cents on my situation. My mind is such a jumbled mess, I don't even know where to begin. Here's my story:
I have been married for 9 years and have an amazing 7 year old son. My husband and I have been totally sexless for about 4 years now, but I think we'd qualify as sexless in terms of frequency since the conception of my son. And likely before trying to conceive, but it's hard to say. We never had a strong sexual connection. And that is where I can see, from where I stand now, that I underestimated the importance of that connection in my decision to marry him. There were so many wonderful things about him that made me want to marry him and have a family with him - and I was right about all of them. He's kind, hardworking, and a great father. I think I was so driven by the idea of having children (I got married at 30 and was feeling very ready for children at that point), that I wasn't seeing that part (the romantic/sexual part) of our relationship clearly. This is my first fuck up. I was definitely aware, but I was not understanding the importance.
After the birth of my son, I would say it was among the happiest times of my life. But all in terms of being a mom, and a family. When it came time to remember my name again, and to connect as husband and wife, I started to feel the disconnect. But of course I blamed having a baby, then a toddler, then me, then this, or that. We took some trips, date nights, I read some books, etc. None of that was helping. I just plain saw him as a friend. It wasn't just the sex. It was any romantic connection. Here comes my second major fuck up. I didn't communicate well about it. Not even to myself. I tried to pretend that it wasn't happening. I couldn't face it. I hid from it, from him. I would fall asleep in my son's room so that I didn't have to feel him touch my body when I didn't want him to. And to hurt him. I know it's so so painful to be on the other side of that, when you get refused. It's also a rather violating feeling to have someone touch you when you don't want them to. If that was something I could control, trust me I would. But I'm feminist enough to not feel the need to have sex with someone to be a dutiful wife. I know he, men, don't even want that. And my husband hid too. We had very little communication for a long while. We proceeded as great coparents and roommates, and that's about it.
So after a few years of this, I started to come to terms with the severity of the problem and started therapy. I had a hard time finding a match for me and for us (including finding one I loved and him passing away after a few sessions, which is so sad and just my luck). About a year ago I started seeing a therapist who has been really helpful. She sees me individually and both of us together. Through therapy, and even a bit through this forum, I started to see that it wasn't just our dynamic. He was, is, really hurt and sad as well. We both win for the worst communicators ever, my therapist is floored. Even with therapy, we only talk about things in the therapy office and go right back to pretending it's not a grave issue. Anyone peering in on our lives would think we have it really good. And in a lot of ways we do. But both my husband and I are incredibly sad inside. I feel like I freeze rather than communicate because what I have to say is so hurtful. I have been clear about how I feel over the years, but I'm learning that my silence on an every day basis is just as hurtful.
For me, it's not that I don't need or want sex/ intimacy. I do. Sometimes desperately. I just don't feel the connection with my husband. And it's not the same for him. He wants that with me. It was far easier when it felt like our dynamic, and it felt like something I could potentially sustain for our son. But to know that I'm hurting my husband so much in this marriage, and if I leave I'll hurt my son so much... What do I do with that? Well, we'd all be hurt by me leaving. I feel like I've been living for my son, and honestly would. He's my world. And because our marriage is low conflict, my son isn't affected negatively by it. He isn't seeing a loving romantic relationship, but my husband and I are compatible and nice to each other in all ways non-romantic. But I don't know how much longer this can go on. I don't think my husband would ever say that he wants out, despite me being clear about how I feel. He's optimistic things will change. But they aren't. And I don't know if there's anything I can do to change how I feel. I feel like an absolute failure. Not only to myself, but to people I love the most in the world.
What can I do?
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Post by nyartgal on Jul 30, 2018 12:41:46 GMT -5
You can start by changing your pattern. It seems like you are stuck in a dynamic where you never talk about anything really personal with our husband or share any real feelings, and vice versa. No wonder there’s no sex, your relationship sounds less intimate than one with your dental hygienist!
Your relationship severely lacks intimacy, honesty, trust (you don’t trust each other to share honestly), candor, and connection. Talking wouldn’t necessarily fix that, but at least you would know what you’re working with.
You know the whole definition of insanity thing: doing the same thing expecting a different result. So don’t. Buy a couple bottles of wine, sit him down tonight after your son is in bed and just start talking about how you feel. Do SOMETHING besides what you have been, because it’s not working.
If you’re just not attracted to him, he deserves to know. And if he doesn’t believe you, you have to set him straight. He deserves that.
It’s great that you are trying to figure things out, but ultimately you will have to confront uncomfortable emotions and realities. So just suck it up, muster up all your courage, and get the ball rolling. The fear you have of it is probably worse than the reality.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 30, 2018 13:46:11 GMT -5
"But I'm feminist enough to not feel the need to have sex with someone to be a dutiful wife."
Feminism is asserting that women have equal rights in the political, work, and domestic arenas. In this regard I am absolutely 100 percent a feminist. However, femanism has nothing to do with "duty sex".
You have sex with someone because you want them sexually. You have sex with your husband because, presumably, you love him and when you got married agreed to provide for each others needs (including sexual). Love ain't a duty. If you see it that way, then you entered the marriage dishonestly.
It seems from your post that you wanted a man to provide you with children and be a good provider. Nothing wrong with that. Presumably, he wanted a wife to share all aspects of his life with. But you don't seem to have wanted a husband. Or at least THIS man as a husband.
All of the therapy on the world cannot make you want to fuck him. But this has exactly zero to do with femininism and "duty sex".
Pairing lack of desire for your husband with feminism is seeking cover behind a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 30, 2018 14:01:15 GMT -5
“ If you’re just not attracted to him, he deserves to know. And if he doesn’t believe you, you have to set him straight. He deserves that.”
True. And if that’s the case, as you can tell, it’s not possible to will yourself into sexually desiring him. Duty sex will not give either of you the satisfaction that comes from real sexual intimacy.
Since it appears you lack sexual feelings for him and are continuing the marriage only for the sake of your son could opening the marriage for both of you give you each what you want? Is enduring celibacy the solution or would an amiable divorce that puts your son’s needs first be the best option?
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 30, 2018 16:56:48 GMT -5
I thought that opening the marriage may help everyone’s needs. However if your H wants you sexually this may be a problem for him to accept an open marriage.
Have you all tried going to a sex therapist? Do you want to be sexually attracted to your H?
I can relate to a lot of the way you feel about your H. I am back with my ex for the companionship and stability. The resentment of being in a SM for 23 years is basically gone, I was refused. Now sometimes I can relate to a refuser mind in terms of my ex in regards to - he would like me to stay up late and watch tv with him but I get up early for work, I like to get to bed early, and I like my alone time.
I recommend the book “Mating in Captivity “ by Ester Perel
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Post by flounder on Jul 30, 2018 17:24:09 GMT -5
Love ain't a duty. If you see it that way, then you entered the marriage dishonestly. -shamwow
Preach,brother !
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Post by workingonit on Jul 30, 2018 17:51:09 GMT -5
Brave of you to post here But seriously, kids adapt to amazing realities abd can even thrive in separate, happy households. You say he only sees good things albeit without affection. But you have also said you are both very sad. Parents always underestimate what kids get. If you are sad your son is subconsciously picking up on it. Bet on it. I think it is great you are owning your truth. I too married someone who met many of the things I wanted but the sexual connection was luke warm at best. I dont know that you need to beat yourself up for that choice. Certainly what seemes livable at the time is not the same thing after so many years- there is no way you could know that then. But what will you do now? You do not believe you can give him the passion and desire he needs and deserves. It hardly seems fair to continue, particularly as he is full of hope likely not realizing that his touch makes your skim crawl. While it may hurt him to have that bubble burst I am a firm believer that being authentic and real with him is ultimately less hurtful then 'sparing' him for a few more years. For what? Even if your life is good otherwise (although I doubt that given the picture of your communication) it will eat away at his self esteem and his ability to respect you when the truth comes out. Just some thoughts for you. There are no simple pain free choices here. Choosing to do nothing is just kicking a much bigger can of pain down the road.
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Post by baza on Jul 30, 2018 19:12:19 GMT -5
Welcome to the zoo Sister @seekingnswers . Quoting you here - "it's not that I don't need or want sex/ intimacy. I do. Sometimes desperately. I just don't feel the connection with my husband" Here are two future scenarios for you. #1 - your spouse gets sick of the lack of sex in the marriage and cheats. #2 - you, who you say does like sex - just not with your husband - runs into some bloke at the PTA meeting, goes weak at the knees and ends up fucking him. Given that you both have *normal* sex drives but are stuck in an environment your *normal* sexual desires can't be met due to fundamental incompatibility, the cheating scenario by one or both of you looks likely in the future. Could your marriage survive that ? Could a case be made to get out ahead of that scenario and negotiate an open marriage now ? Could a case be made to part ways and amicably co-parent ? Can a cogent case be put up to do nothing, and let the marriage continue on its' present trajectory until it crashes ? Your choice which Sister seekinganswers . Stay - cheat - leave. There's your options. The exact same options you'd have if you were the refused. The exact same options your spouse has available as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2018 20:03:32 GMT -5
I thought that opening the marriage may help everyone’s needs. However if your H wants you sexually this may be a problem for him to accept an open marriage. Have you all tried going to a sex therapist? Do you want to be sexually attracted to your H? I can relate to a lot of the way you feel about your H. I am back with my ex for the companionship and stability. The resentment of being in a SM for 23 years is basically gone, I was refused. Now sometimes I can relate to a refuser mind in terms of my ex in regards to - he would like me to stay up late and watch tv with him but I get up early for work, I like to get to bed early, and I like my alone time. I recommend the book “Mating in Captivity “ by Ester Perel Can you imagine that? "Honey, I dont want to have sex with you, but I sure would like to have sex with other men" "oh, and you can go fuck someone else too"
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Post by beachguy on Jul 30, 2018 20:19:03 GMT -5
I grew up with respectful but loveless and sexless parents. I was your son. You are not doing your son any favors by staying. You are only teaching him that a sexless marriage is not just OK, it's the norm. The baseline reference.
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Post by seekinganswers on Jul 30, 2018 22:26:44 GMT -5
Wow, thank you all so much for your insight and advice. I hear you. I HAVE to start talking more and not hold back, "suck it up, muster up all your courage, and get the ball rolling" as nyartgal said. ( nyartgal I do have more intimacy with my dental hygienist! That made me laugh.) @workingonit, this struck a chord: "being authentic and real with him is ultimately less hurtful then 'sparing' him for a few more years." As did your comment about kids picking up on more than you think. So true. Confirmed by beachguy, which totally made me tear up. I could personally never have an open marriage, but I can see an amiable divorce that puts my son’s needs first. I still wonder if there's something I can do to be more attracted to my husband though. I know a lot of you are saying, fat chance. Maybe the conversations will bring a level of intimacy that leads to something. Who knows. I don't think we'll ever get to a point where sex is mind blowing, but maybe there's a point where we have enough intimacy to keep us fulfilled. He's traveling these next few days, but I'll talk to him when he gets back and start there. bballgirl - I'm so glad you mentioned that book, Mating in Captivity. I heard about it awhile back and it sounded interesting, but I haven't read it yet. It will be the next book I read. shamwow - without this turning into a post about feminism, it was an interesting challenge you presented. I think we agree more than we disagree. I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. It was my point actually. I wasn't associating my lack of desire for my husband with feminism. I was associating that part of "a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years" includes that a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? To the people who liked his post, do you not agree? At any rate, if you don't consider that an aspect of feminism, then perhaps it's at least an off shoot, or empowerment stemming from feminism. I imagine you can see the connection. I do think it's a bit of stretch to say I entered the marriage dishonestly though. I think we all wish we could have known then what we know now. Thank you all so much. Truly.
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 30, 2018 22:42:27 GMT -5
"But I'm feminist enough to not feel the need to have sex with someone to be a dutiful wife." Feminism is asserting that women have equal rights in the political, work, and domestic arenas. In this regard I am absolutely 100 percent a feminist. However, femanism has nothing to do with "duty sex". You have sex with someone because you want them sexually. You have sex with your husband because, presumably, you love him and when you got married agreed to provide for each others needs (including sexual). Love ain't a duty. If you see it that way, then you entered the marriage dishonestly. It seems from your post that you wanted a man to provide you with children and be a good provider. Nothing wrong with that. Presumably, he wanted a wife to share all aspects of his life with. But you don't seem to have wanted a husband. Or at least THIS man as a husband. All of the therapy on the world cannot make you want to fuck him. But this has exactly zero to do with femininism and "duty sex". Pairing lack of desire for your husband with feminism is seeking cover behind a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years. I think that my wife wields some of this feminist empowerment too far also. When the focus becomes on stressing body autonomy and consent to the detriment of a mutual wish to satisfy each other, problems start. People can be as autonomous and unwilling to share their bodies and unwilling to fuck all they want, but don't take that into a marriage where the other is looking for intimacy. It's simply cruel. This perspective has a way of making the refused feel like a violator when trying to sneak a touch or I daresay a grope on their significant other with the intention of sparking mutual interest. And I've been accused of only wanting her for sex; I've pointed out clearly not since I'm complaining about performance in that area and not others! I started a thread a while back iliasm.org/thread/2395/responsibility that addresses the "duty" quoted here. Why focus on it being a duty? Why not give something to your spouse because you love him/her? Especially if you know it's what they truly need to feel loved. I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. It was my point actually. I wasn't associating my lack of desire for my husband with feminism. I was associating that part of "a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years" includes that a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? To the people who liked his post, do you not agree? I agree, but keep in mind that mindset latched onto and put into practice regularly may lead to an unhappy marriage, cheating, divorce, or all of the above. Choices have consequences. It's fine if you don't feel like being touched, but do the guy a favor and get out if an intimate marriage isn't what you want.
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Post by JMX on Jul 30, 2018 22:52:52 GMT -5
Wow, thank you all so much for your insight and advice. I hear you. I HAVE to start talking more and not hold back, "suck it up, muster up all your courage, and get the ball rolling" as nyartgal said. ( nyartgal I do have more intimacy with my dental hygienist! That made me laugh.) @workingonit, this struck a chord: "being authentic and real with him is ultimately less hurtful then 'sparing' him for a few more years." As did your comment about kids picking up on more than you think. So true. Confirmed by beachguy, which totally made me tear up. I could personally never have an open marriage, but I can see an amiable divorce that puts my son’s needs first. I still wonder if there's something I can do to be more attracted to my husband though. I know a lot of you are saying, fat chance. Maybe the conversations will bring a level of intimacy that leads to something. Who knows. I don't think we'll ever get to a point where sex is mind blowing, but maybe there's a point where we have enough intimacy to keep us fulfilled. He's traveling these next few days, but I'll talk to him when he gets back and start there. bballgirl - I'm so glad you mentioned that book, Mating in Captivity. I heard about it awhile back and it sounded interesting, but I haven't read it yet. It will be the next book I read. shamwow - without this turning into a post about feminism, it was an interesting challenge you presented. I think we agree more than we disagree. I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. It was my point actually. I wasn't associating my lack of desire for my husband with feminism. I was associating that part of "a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years" includes that a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? To the people who liked his post, do you not agree? At any rate, if you don't consider that an aspect of feminism, then perhaps it's at least an off shoot, or empowerment stemming from feminism. I imagine you can see the connection. I do think it's a bit of stretch to say I entered the marriage dishonestly though. I think we all wish we could have known then what we know now. Thank you all so much. Truly. I didn’t “like” your original post because of the feminism bit, to be honest but I will answer 😊 Respectfully, feminism has done a lot of good in the last 100 years. However, the good that it has done, GAVE you the ability to choose. You chose wrong. You have the ability to get out. When you CHOOSE to couple with someone legally - part of it IS being one. You and that person define what that means together. If you never defined that - that’s on you. It’s not to be protected under blanket “feminism”. Don’t give the rest of us a bad name. The feminism card should not be played as an excuse for your cowardice.
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Post by JMX on Jul 30, 2018 22:55:51 GMT -5
And - by the way - I want to say, but responded too quickly, I am happy you posted here. Thank you!
I also agree we all wish we had done things differently!
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Post by baza on Jul 30, 2018 23:17:58 GMT -5
"I still wonder if there's something I can do to be more attracted to my husband though" His personality, his behaviours, his view of life, his overall persona produce a unique individual. Some people in the world will find that unique package very alluring, and very rootable. You ain't one of those people who can feel this way, about him. That doesn't make you a bad person Sister seekinganswers. And it doesn't make him a bad person for not having the assorted traits that get you moist and excited. What it does make, is you two incompatible with having a robust intimate life *with each other*. Getting married to each other was probably not such a great idea, but you did. Staying together might not be such a great idea either, but you are - at least for the moment. And no matter what, you have produced a minimum of one good thing out of all this - your kid. Have "the talk" as you propose. Bear in mind that at this point your spouse is probably not as far down the path as you. You've obviously been thinking about this for quite a while before you googled 'sexless marriage'. He probably hasn't been. FWIW, as far as a communicator, you seem pretty good - at least in the writing form, so it might fall on you to drive the process forward.
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