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Post by northstarmom on Jul 17, 2018 16:32:34 GMT -5
Making sure that everyone understands that I fully agree that refusers are being cruel when they expect their spouse to agree to a celibate marriage. It also is selfish when refusers know they don't like sex, but do not disclose that information before marrying.
I wrote: "I doubt that you or anyone else here would be expecting your husband to get medical treatment if sex were causing him excruciating physical pain that had only limited chance of being ameliorated by lengthy, painful medical treatment. Seems the same compassion should be extended to a person like your husband."
My point is that it's cruel for refusers to expect their sex-loving spouses to live a celibate life because the refusers don't like sex. At the same time, it's cruelty to demand that refusers enter emotionally gut-renching therapy to end their lack of interest in sex just so the refused can have a sex life. Refusers are probably happier being celibate than they would be in the potentially years of therapy it might take for them to be able to endure (not necessarily enjoy) sex.
This is why I say that if a partner has deep seated emotional problems due to some kind of sexual abuse that causes them to not desire sex, it would be better to realize you are not compatible and aren't likely to be. That's reason let them go so each of you can find partners that are compatible. There are -- as we all well know -- plenty of people who don't like sex. There also are plenty of sex-loving peope. Let the refusers go so they can be available to such a partner while you're fully available for any potential sex -loving partner who would be a good fit for the kind of relationship you expected when you married.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 17, 2018 16:53:51 GMT -5
northstarmom - nice idea but hopelessly idealistic. This is what you are suggesting... After many years of a sexless marriage, the refuser suddenly discovers his CSA. The refused now says "oh, it's childhood sex abuse. That's a total deal breaker. And files for divorce the following week. Try that out for size in the real world and see how it flies... Personally I think you are right but in the real world that is NEVER done, and it probably could never be done without the refused taking a shit load of criticism from everyone she knows. And really the same can be applied to all sorts of childhood abuse that results in the wiring of the refuser, most of which is painful for the refuser to process and has similarly little documented hope for therapy success.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 17, 2018 17:06:05 GMT -5
"After many years of a sexless marriage, the refused suddenly discovers his CSA.
The refuser now says "oh, it's childhood sex abuse. That's a total deal breaker. And files for divorce the following week."
Actually, I think it would be rare in the real world because probably most people whose marriages are sexless don't wait years to file. Only the too-nice-refused-who-end-up-here wait that long. And those refused are so understanding and compassionate that if their refusing spouse blames years of abuse on suddenly discovered CSA, the refused show compassion by backing off sexually in hopes that will allow their spouse the space to heal. We've seen that again and again here.
"Personally I think you are right but in the real world that is NEVER done, and it probably could never be done without the refused taking a shit load of criticism from everyone she knows." The only people who'd say that are those who don't like sex. Others would say, "What took you so long?" and nominate the refused for sainthood.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 17, 2018 17:12:43 GMT -5
I think you would be surprised at the reaction if a refused came in with that story ending in a quick decision to divorce.
And we are not talking about “typical” refused that leave their SMs quickly. They never learn about the CSA. Why obfuscate the discussion?
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Post by shamwow on Jul 17, 2018 18:18:01 GMT -5
I have been thinking a lot about how my husband’s past plays into our SM. (He grew up in an emotionally and verbally abusive home that sometimes was also physically abusive. He was also sexually abused as a young child—he thinks it may have been by his mother— but that memory is hazy.) He has worked on his issues in therapy and on his own throughout most of his life. He has broken the cycle of abuse and is a good father and stepfather. It occurred to me today that maybe it just isn’t in him to be able to maintain a sexually intimate relationship with someone who is a strongly maternal figure. And that perhaps it isn’t fair of me to ask him to do so... no more fair than him asking me to be celibate because of his issues. What do you think? Is it fair to ask a person who has endured CST to maintain a sexually intimate relationship for sake of meeting their partner’s needs? Is it fair to ask you to pay the penance for someone else's sins? Just because one suffers abuse does not give license to abuse others. And forcing you to live life as an involuntary martyr is abuse. I think that those of use who went through an SM where our partner was a victim of sexual abuse (real, imagined, remembered, or fabricated) go through a different wringer than those who ho through the more common fading away of intimacy many marriages go through. Every kind of SM has its own particular flavor of "suck" to it. But one with a spouse alleging CSA is particularly shitty. It is akin to leaving a spouse when they get cancer. Except with cancer they have the possibility of recovery . Very few spouses of those who make it here have what it takes to ever become whole again. But if the abuse is known you feel you'll get the "bad guy" label if you leave. So the choice is a lifetime of penance for someone else's sins or becoming not just a "bad guy" but a despicable human being for leaving a "victim". Oh and if you stay, you have the burden of feeling like a rapist every time you "try something". It's a fucking no win situation. So those of us who are the victims of the victims of CSA are sure as hell fair to want what we were promised - without guilt for wanting it. And to get out guilt free if we were sold a bill of goods. Sorry for the rant. This thread hit a nerve.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 17, 2018 18:22:08 GMT -5
"I think you would be surprised at the reaction if a refused came in with that story ending in a quick decision to divorce.
And we are not talking about “typical” refused that leave their SMs quickly. They never learn about the CSA. Why obfuscate the discussion?"
It matters who the refused friends are and whether the refused has revealed their SM to their friends. About 5-6 years before I divorced I started revealing to my friends my sexlessness. The typical response was that I was a saint for putting up with it. Friends also wondered why I hadn't divorced. I'm fairly sure that if my refuser had told me years into my marriage that he was victimized by CSA, my friends may have been compassionate toward him, but I doubt they would have expected me to stay in the marriage hoping he'd change. I think that people in normal relationships realize that if one has been involuntarily sexless in one's marriage for years despite one's partner's being physically able, there's no reason to expect a turnaround no matter what the partner says the problem is.
Many here say that they would be shunned, blamed, etc. if they left their SM. I continue to say that's because of the crowd they choose to hang with. Just look at the stats of sex frequency for married couples. You'll see that until people get up in age, most married couples are having sex far more frequently than the 10 times a year that officially means one is in a SM. They assume everyone else who is married also is having sex. The idea of being in a SM is inconceivable to most people.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 17, 2018 18:41:09 GMT -5
"I think you would be surprised at the reaction if a refused came in with that story ending in a quick decision to divorce. And we are not talking about “typical” refused that leave their SMs quickly. They never learn about the CSA. Why obfuscate the discussion?" It matters who the refused friends are and whether the refused has revealed their SM to their friends. About 5-6 years before I divorced I started revealing to my friends my sexlessness. The typical response was that I was a saint for putting up with it. Friends also wondered why I hadn't divorced. I'm fairly sure that if my refuser had told me years into my marriage that he was victimized by CSA, my friends may have been compassionate toward him, but I doubt they would have expected me to stay in the marriage hoping he'd change. I think that people in normal relationships realize that if one has been involuntarily sexless in one's marriage for years despite one's partner's being physically able, there's no reason to expect a turnaround no matter what the partner says the problem is. Many here say that they would be shunned, blamed, etc. if they left their SM. I continue to say that's because of the crowd they choose to hang with. Just look at the stats of sex frequency for married couples. You'll see that until people get up in age, most married couples are having sex far more frequently than the 10 times a year that officially means one is in a SM. They assume everyone else who is married also is having sex. The idea of being in a SM is inconceivable to most people. And if it isn't "the crowd you hang out with", but your own sense of right and wrong (hence the martyr syndrome)? That was the reason I stayed. My ex's CSA had not been "outed". The guilt that kept me there was internal, not external. It was only in the final stages of my marriage I really started thinking about her story and poking holes in it. I mean, what kind of monster would make that up? Well I married one and paid my penance for it. I'm free of her but the mind fuck she gave me for a couple decades is not gotten rid of quite as easily.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 17, 2018 18:47:17 GMT -5
I agree with Shammy. It could be your own martyr syndrome or belief that sex is dirty, sinful or only for procreation. I certainly was a product of Catholic training that sexual feelings were sinful. I also was a product of my mother’s calling me a slut for having sex and liking it when I was in college. When I shed my inhibitions and guilt about sex, I was able to leave my refuser and have a sexually robust, passionate relationship.
The reason most here are in sms is due to themselves not their refusers. You chose to marry that person and remain with them despite the sexlessness. speaking from experience as I chose and stayed married to a person inhibited about sex.
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kittymox
Junior Member
Just a dandelion
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Age Range: 41-45
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Post by kittymox on Jul 17, 2018 18:53:40 GMT -5
Similar to my situation. My partner can overcome the inhibition and insecurities when he is drunk or mostly asleep (and he doesn't drink anymore). His unconscious self wants it (my sleep is often interrupted with night gropes and sleep boners). His awake self is overwhelmed with dark thoughts and bad feelings and insecurities that make him feel sick and act mean. I thought he loved sex when we got together but turns out he was just drunk enough to act like he loved sex. Now I honestly don't know. All I know is that it's really hard to stay mad at someone who had the shit beaten out of him by people who were supposed to love him. And it feels cruel to destabilize whatever peace he might feel now by bringing it up. Sigh.
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kittymox
Junior Member
Just a dandelion
Posts: 32
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by kittymox on Jul 17, 2018 18:57:26 GMT -5
What pisses me off, though, is that he has no such qualms about staying mad or being cruel about my situation. I stress far more about his feelings than he does about mine.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 17, 2018 18:57:43 GMT -5
I agree with Shammy. It could be your own martyr syndrome or belief that sex is dirty, sinful or only for procreation. I certainly was a product of Catholic training that sexual feelings were sinful. I also was a product of my mother’s calling me a slut for having sex and liking it when I was in college. When I shed my inhibitions and guilt about sex, I was able to leave my refuser and have a sexually robust, passionate relationship. My guilt was not about sex. It was about leaving someone who was (as I thought), sick. It was about the kind man I wanted to be. And a good man doesn't leave someone because they are sick. I made a vow in sickness and health. And that vow tore me apart inside for years. See, that's the tricky part. If they are sick then they have a REASON why the other vows (such as to have and to hold) are not honored. But does it count if they are not making any effort to get better? In the end, a dawning realization that she lied about her CSA (as well as a out other "medical issues") was enough to break my impasse.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 17, 2018 18:58:28 GMT -5
What pisses me off, though, is that he has no such qualms about staying mad or being cruel about my situation. I stress far more about his feelings than he does about mine. Bingo
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 17, 2018 19:26:58 GMT -5
shamwow you repeated something in this thread that really stuck with me the first time you mentioned it when you learned of my situation: “Is it fair to ask you to pay the penance for someone else’s sins?” That was such a good point and I revisited that thought many times over the past year as I was trying to decide what to do. I am a very compassionate person and for years that compassion for my H won out. But at some point I had to decide that even though YES, what happened to my H was awful and unfair to him, that does not mean that I don’t still have to right to save my own self from the effects of it.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 17, 2018 20:08:55 GMT -5
shamwow you repeated something in this thread that really stuck with me the first time you mentioned it when you learned of my situation: “Is it fair to ask you to pay the penance for someone else’s sins?” That was such a good point and I revisited that thought many times over the past year as I was trying to decide what to do. I am a very compassionate person and for years that compassion for my H won out. But at some point I had to decide that even though YES, what happened to my H was awful and unfair to him, that does not mean that I don’t still have to right to save my own self from the effects of it. I paid 30 years penance for the sins of my STBX’s psycho mother. I don’t recommend it.
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catsloveme
Full Member
Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 204
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 17, 2018 20:25:54 GMT -5
shamwow you repeated something in this thread that really stuck with me the first time you mentioned it when you learned of my situation: “Is it fair to ask you to pay the penance for someone else’s sins?” That was such a good point and I revisited that thought many times over the past year as I was trying to decide what to do. I am a very compassionate person and for years that compassion for my H won out. But at some point I had to decide that even though YES, what happened to my H was awful and unfair to him, that does not mean that I don’t still have to right to save my own self from the effects of it. I paid 30 years penance for the sins of my STBX’s psycho mother. I don’t recommend it. I have wished so often that I could travel back in time and kick some asses. But I am here in present time, paying penance...
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