catsloveme
Full Member
Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 206
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 16, 2018 22:15:08 GMT -5
I have been thinking a lot about how my husband’s past plays into our SM. (He grew up in an emotionally and verbally abusive home that sometimes was also physically abusive. He was also sexually abused as a young child—he thinks it may have been by his mother— but that memory is hazy.)
He has worked on his issues in therapy and on his own throughout most of his life. He has broken the cycle of abuse and is a good father and stepfather.
It occurred to me today that maybe it just isn’t in him to be able to maintain a sexually intimate relationship with someone who is a strongly maternal figure. And that perhaps it isn’t fair of me to ask him to do so... no more fair than him asking me to be celibate because of his issues.
What do you think? Is it fair to ask a person who has endured CST to maintain a sexually intimate relationship for sake of meeting their partner’s needs?
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Post by shamwow on Jul 16, 2018 22:25:05 GMT -5
I have been thinking a lot about how my husband’s past plays into our SM. (He grew up in an emotionally and verbally abusive home that sometimes was also physically abusive. He was also sexually abused as a young child—he thinks it may have been by his mother— but that memory is hazy.) He has worked on his issues in therapy and on his own throughout most of his life. He has broken the cycle of abuse and is a good father and stepfather. It occurred to me today that maybe it just isn’t in him to be able to maintain a sexually intimate relationship with someone who is a strongly maternal figure. And that perhaps it isn’t fair of me to ask him to do so... no more fair than him asking me to be celibate because of his issues. What do you think? Is it fair to ask a person who has endured CST to maintain a sexually intimate relationship for sake of meeting their partner’s needs? Please look at ballofconfusion post. The best I've seen on the subject. www.iliasm.org/post/94372
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Post by baza on Jul 16, 2018 23:58:33 GMT -5
Shit things happen to people that are not their fault. But given that they did happen, it becomes the person it happened to's responsibility to play out the hand they've been dealt.
Here, for example #1 your husband got the shit sandwich of sexual abuse foisted upon him through no fault of his own. However, it is his responsibility to play the cards he got dealt.
Example #2, you, through your own choice or act of the cosmos, got the shit sandwich of a dysfunctional marriage. It is your responsibility to play those cards you got dealt.
You can't play his cards for him. That's his gig. He can't play your cards for you. That's your gig.
To your point - "Is it fair to ask a person who has endured CST to maintain a sexually intimate relationship for sake of meeting their partner’s needs?" - I'd say "no", it isn't fair. It's probably not even realistic. You could be asking something of him that is simply impossible for him to do. Just as it would not be fair if he expected you to stay in the deal and forswear ever having a sex life.
But I would further note that there is very little in life that is "fair".
Either by the whims of the cosmos, or sometimes by our own choices, we all get our shit sandwiches duly served up to us. And it's our responsibility to deal with ours.
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catsloveme
Full Member
Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 206
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 17, 2018 0:13:09 GMT -5
I have been thinking a lot about how my husband’s past plays into our SM. (He grew up in an emotionally and verbally abusive home that sometimes was also physically abusive. He was also sexually abused as a young child—he thinks it may have been by his mother— but that memory is hazy.) He has worked on his issues in therapy and on his own throughout most of his life. He has broken the cycle of abuse and is a good father and stepfather. It occurred to me today that maybe it just isn’t in him to be able to maintain a sexually intimate relationship with someone who is a strongly maternal figure. And that perhaps it isn’t fair of me to ask him to do so... no more fair than him asking me to be celibate because of his issues. What do you think? Is it fair to ask a person who has endured CST to maintain a sexually intimate relationship for sake of meeting their partner’s needs? Please look at ballofconfusion post. The best I've seen on the subject. www.iliasm.org/post/94372Thank you, shamwow, for pointing me in the direction of this post. I think I read this a few days ago when it was linked to in either my or another’s thread. Initially, I read it again and will keep reading it into it all sinks in. It’s a lot to take in. Not hopeful stuff, but realistic. And that’s what I need right now.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 17, 2018 2:46:35 GMT -5
Is it fair for you to live in a marriage that never will be able to provide the sex life that healthy people expect to have in marriage?
It seems that you and your husband are so sexually incompatible that it's not possible for both of you to feel happy and fulfilled in the marriage.
Would you have married your husband if you knew that the marriage would mean permanent celibacy or permanently having a mate who would never enjoy sexual relations with you?
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Post by shamwow on Jul 17, 2018 7:22:28 GMT -5
Thank you, shamwow, for pointing me in the direction of this post. I think I read this a few days ago when it was linked to in either my or another’s thread. Initially, I read it again and will keep reading it into it all sinks in. It’s a lot to take in. Not hopeful stuff, but realistic. And that’s what I need right now. My experience is similar except I think my ex made it up in part or in whole. As far as the link I'm a bit partial to the author 😉
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 17, 2018 12:25:24 GMT -5
"What do you think? Is it fair to ask a person who has endured CST to maintain a sexually intimate relationship for sake of meeting their partner’s needs?" catsloveme I have asked myself the same question many times in the past year as my H endured CSA as well which led to him being unable (not just unwilling but actually unable) to engage in sex or intimacy. I determined that for ME, it felt fair to ask him to go to therapy to work on his issues and try to determine what he is capable of within the context of our marriage. But as time went on and nothing changed within our marriage or how he related to me even as it seemed he was working hard in therapy, I came to terms with the reality that he would never want a sexually intimate relationship. So I was no longer going to ask him for one and instead we are divorcing. When I had "The Talk" with him about separating I did not really even talk about the lack of intimacy much. He knew it was an untenable situation for me; I had told him previously that I refused to live a celibate life. I've copied what I wrote in another post about this and pasted here for you. As you can see, I do believe it confirmed that I was doing the right thing by taking away any pressure (spoken or unspoken) for him to be intimate: "So as far as THIS conversation went, we didn't really even discuss the lack of sex and affection much. He knows it's been hard for me, he knows where I stand. He's been in intensive therapy for a year now and nothing at all has changed. So I let him off the hook. I didn't complain about it or blame him, I just stated that I can't live like this anymore, I need sex and intimacy in my life and after a full year I have come to terms with the fact that he will never be that person for me again. I told him I'm proud of him that he's still in therapy and I hope he continues (he has some major anxiety issues related to the CSA that negatively effect his life, even outside of the marriage) but that I don't think it's realistic for either of us to think that he will ever WANT sex in his life and basically, I don't want him to feel that pressure any longer. He didn't argue, just listened, and then we moved on. I take his silence on the matter as confirmation that my thoughts are correct and he's not going to try to fight for that. Ok. It's time for me to move on then."
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 17, 2018 12:40:45 GMT -5
This question reminded me of a previous thread where northstarmom stated that she found it cruel of me to ask for my H to continue therapy so that he could hopefully one day enjoy sex with me: iliasm.org/thread/3351/dry-spell-brokenI disagreed with what she expressed then, and I still do now but it is worth some thought on this topic. If I had to do it over, I still would have wanted for him to attend therapy so that we could both learn what he is (was) capable and incapable of within our marriage but I also still would have drawn the line where I did when I realized it wasn't going to get better. My H's issues due to the CSA are deep and affect many aspects of his life. Now that I better understand that, I DO think it would be unreasonable of me and indeed, unrealistic of me, to ask for him to have a sexual relationship with me. It is weird to say that because we were married, and marriages *should* have a sexual component to them but he is not capable of it. Time will tell if your H is capable/incapable, willing/unwilling. I would suspect even if he is capable and sometimes willing, he is unlikely to actually WANT to. In the context of a (normal) marriage though, NO I do not think it is unfair for a spouse to expect to have a sexual relationship with their partner. That is part of what he agreed to when he said "I do". If we are talking about fairness, I think that it is much more unfair for him to force you to be celibate against your wishes. But life isn't always fair, is it? You have to decide what you can live with. EDIT: The comment by northstarmom starts near bottom of page 2.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 17, 2018 13:32:04 GMT -5
Here’s my comment that lonelywifey referred to:
“Think about what you're asking of him. Presumably now, he has the life he wants. He is, after all, a man who doesn't know if he's asexual. So, he doesn't miss sex. From what you've described, he not only doesn't miss sex, he finds it excruciatingly psychically painful to engage in basic sexual activities such as touching your breast.
Yet, what you want is for him to go to therapy -- reliving and discussing painful memories-- and you want him to stay in therapy long enough (which for situations like his could mean years) so eh can happy engage in an act that right now he has no desire for and doesn't miss.
While I empathize with your desire to have sex with the man you married, I also feel for him in that he is extremely wounded, and what you're asking of him is to go through possibly years of pain in order to have a chance of giving you the marriage you want. There's no guarantee that if he goes through all of that pain, he will ever be sexually compatible with you and will become a skilled, passionate lover for you.
For that reason, it could be fairer to both of you for each of you to accept the other as they are and not ask or expect your partner to change. If you want sex, and he truly loves you, he would agree to open the marriage for you. If you love him, you could accept him for the asexual person that he is and stop guilting him and badgering him into doing an act that is so obviously painful to him. I doubt that you or anyone else here would be expecting your husband to get medical treatment if sex were causing him excruciating physical pain that had only limited chance of being ameliorated by lengthy, painful medical treatment. Seems the same compassion should be extended to a person like your husband.
It is unrealistic and cruel to expect him to change. It would be easier and kinder to demand change of yourself -- to stop acting as if your husband is your only potential source of sexual relief. As long as you choose to focus your sexual energy and desire on him, both of you will be miserable because what you desire of him is not possible for him to do. Your demands are probably breaking his heart and spirit just like his rejection is breaking yours. If the only way you can be happily married to him would be to have a fulfilling sex life with him, you might as well do both of you a favor and let him go because he is not capable of doing that. Your demanding that of him is hurting both of you. Just as there are likely other men who would be sexually and otherwise compatible with you, there are other people who likely would be happy being in a sexless relationship with your husband. “
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catsloveme
Full Member
Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 206
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 17, 2018 14:49:04 GMT -5
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Post by beachguy on Jul 17, 2018 15:00:37 GMT -5
There is a completely different twist to this argument of cruelty vs cruelty. It was cruel for choosinghappy 's husband to consign her to a sexless marriage. And I suspect that was not made clear to her before she committed to the relationship. And the standard advice here is that if you can't live with that, then leave. Perhaps it can be argued that her attempts to change or "fix" her husband amounted to cruelty (*). If her H did indeed feel that her attempts amounted to cruelty, then he too had the same option to leave the relationship. And the same burden to make that choice that the refused has. This sword cuts both ways. * - I'm not even going there, and it is irrelevant to my point here. As the awesome baza often says in these cases, both parties have their own shit to unpack. Part of choosinghappy 's H's shit unpacking is making that stay or leave decision. And of course the same is true of all CSA cases.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 17, 2018 15:06:24 GMT -5
My experience is similar except I think my ex made it up in part or in whole. As far as the link I'm a bit partial to the author 😉 The most over the top CSA story I've read (it was another SM venue): "He told me that he thinks he was sexually abused as a child but has absolutely no recollection of it" There's a whole 3rd rail here that is never touched...
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Post by ted on Jul 17, 2018 15:07:46 GMT -5
What do you think? Is it fair to ask a person who has endured CST to maintain a sexually intimate relationship for sake of meeting their partner’s needs? I think it's absolutely fair to ask—they volunteered for your marriage after all—but you must accept their answer (words or actions). Been there, done that, and wouldn't believe the answer I didn't want to hear for a very long time. Made it worse for both of us, I'm sure.
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Post by ballofconfusion on Jul 17, 2018 15:28:56 GMT -5
My STBX was a victim of childhood sexual abuse and wasn't aware of it (memories surfaced 18 years into the marriage). However, he did know prior to our marriage that he was uninterested in sex in general. This was not communicated to me. Rather, it was implied that once we were actually married, he would feel good about sex. He was a staunch Catholic and religious reasons seemed pretty reasonable to me as a valid "excuse" for the exceedingly tepid sexual response by him to that point.
Given that, I do not believe it is cruel or unfair that I asked for sex during the marriage. I was not given all of the information I was owed in order to make a fully informed decision to marry him. Although he was unaware of the abuse prior to the marriage, he was acutely aware that he found sex distasteful. Rather than share that with his bride to be (me), he obfuscated and hinted that amazing times were coming in bed - once we were married. THAT is cruel. Further, once he DID realize that he was a victim of childhood sexual abuse, he simply expected that I would accept it and be happy to know, at last, that is was "him" and not "me."
Was it then cruel for me to insist on therapy for the sake of his own mental health and for the sake of the marriage? Was it cruel and unfair that I wanted a true marriage? Was it unfair that he refused to seek help for many years and expected me to honor my vows despite his deception? Whose behavior is cruel? Sexual intimacy is the differentiator between a marriage and a simple friendship. I would argue that if you love your husband or wife then you would seek help simply to be a happy and healthy marriage partner - and that the sexual intimacy that was implicit in the marriage vows ought to be honored. It is neither cruel nor unfair to expect that. It is cruel and unfair to avoid the hard and vital work of trying to heal yourself. It is cruel and unfair not to engage in the fight to strengthen the marriage and overcome the effects of the abuse (to the extent possible). If it were a cancer that was threatening the health of one of the spouses, the need to "fight" would not likely be characterized as cruel or unfair simply because it was hard, frightening, and distasteful. I believe that, in a marriage, you are obligated to fight for your own health and for the health of the marriage. In the case of childhood sexual abuse, that fight may feel like it will kill you before you heal (much like chemo). However hard that "fight" may be, I believe it's part of what you sign up for. It feels cruel to be deceived and then called "unfair" when you attempt to create the marriage you were promised. Just my two cents from a hospital waiting room today.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 17, 2018 15:37:11 GMT -5
ballofconfusion - very well said and it puts the lie to the excuse of CSA discovered late in life, as it always seems to be. And as I just said, they have the same burden of deciding to stay or leave that they force on their partners.
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