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Post by solodriver on Jul 8, 2018 22:15:01 GMT -5
"I struggle with the thought I will let my wife down if I decide we are not going anywhere and I leave. " What about the 18 YEARS she let you down solodriver ? I agree and I will be keeping that in my mind if it should start to feel guilty when I announce that I'm leaving. I know I'm going to have to become someone I never am, but I will be angry enough at that point it shouldn't be a problem.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 8, 2018 23:13:15 GMT -5
"I struggle with the thought I will let my wife down if I decide we are not going anywhere and I leave. " What about the 18 YEARS she let you down solodriver ? I agree and I will be keeping that in my mind if it should start to feel guilty when I announce that I'm leaving. I know I'm going to have to become someone I never am, but I will be angry enough at that point it shouldn't be a problem. Let that anger be appropriate. Eighteen years of sexlessness is a long time to cover fact she had no sexual interest in you, only offering token sex when you were at your breaking point. I see this as fraud, and have no problem being angry about it.
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Post by baza on Jul 8, 2018 23:30:47 GMT -5
It would seem that Sister catsloveme 's thread has been summarily hi-jacked.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 9, 2018 0:19:01 GMT -5
Sorry.
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Post by elynne on Jul 9, 2018 0:27:17 GMT -5
shamwow, you asked “Gently I ask what the "resolution" is in your mind? If you cannot articulate it, he can never live up to it. He might not be able to live up to it anyway, but it will not be because you were unable to communicate it clearly.” The ideal resolution in my mind is that we reestablish a level of intimacy (and a sexual frequency) that we are both happy with. The good news is that he feels the same way. If he can’t live up to that or we cannot come to an agreement then we will need to work something out so that I can get my needs met. I don’t want to delve too far into that at the moment but it something that is on the back of my mind. I think it’s in the back of his too, frankly. Just thinking out of the box here, if being married triggered his intimacy issues, perhaps getting divorced on paper but continuing the relationship may resolve the issue? Maybe that’s too simplistic. In the Netherlands, there seems to be a increase in “living apart together” relationships where couples who get together later in life decide to maintain separate residences despite being married and in a long term committed relationship. My point is, maybe you can work with your husband to find a solution unique to you. Another point, if childhood sexual trauma is at the root of the problem, therapy should be a given not a plan B. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 9, 2018 10:39:44 GMT -5
catsloveme, I hope all is going well with the results of your talk. I am not a big believer in counseling and therapy, and I am not a big believer that most refusers can joyfully give us the sort of desire and experiences that we want. You and your husband had it at some point, so your situation is a bit more optimistic than some others. As far as getting your needs met elsewhere if he can't meet them, good for you. Without regard to what that will entail, you are making a good move laying that out as a valid consequence. With rare occasion, that will only be a stopgap between where you are now and divorce. Couples that have open relationships stay together because, whether it is cucking or swinging, it is something they like to do together. Having a side guy would likely just give you a taste of what you are missing.
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 9, 2018 12:17:33 GMT -5
catsloveme, just a thought but have you thought about whether you still actually want to have sex with Mr. Catz? I ask because I think a few of us have wanted sex, been unhappy with the lack of sex with the spouse only to realize that they aren't attached anymore because the relationship has changed. Would you be truly excited if he called you up to the bedroom right now or would it be awkward and meh? Think carefully about what you want. It might save you previous months of your life as you skip right past some of the steps to tearing things down and rebuilding your life. I get what you’re saying. And I have asked myself this question. My answer is that I have to try and I have to find out. I love my husband dearly and we have built a good life together.
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 9, 2018 12:27:02 GMT -5
Just thinking out of the box here, if being married triggered his intimacy issues, perhaps getting divorced on paper but continuing the relationship may resolve the issue? Maybe that’s too simplistic. In the Netherlands, there seems to be a increase in “living apart together” relationships where couples who get together later in life decide to maintain separate residences despite being married and in a long term committed relationship. My point is, maybe you can work with your husband to find a solution unique to you. Another point, if childhood sexual trauma is at the root of the problem, therapy should be a given not a plan B. Just my 2 cents. elynne, I have suggested divorce as a solution to restoring intimacy/ removing whatever triggered his fear/aversion. I’m open to any solution that will move things forward in a constructive way. I agree that counseling should be a given, not a plan B. To my husband’s credit, he has done a lot of counseling over the years to work through this and other issues. What he said when we were talking is that he will go back into counseling if we’re not making progress on our own.
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 9, 2018 12:40:09 GMT -5
catsloveme, I hope all is going well with the results of your talk. I am not a big believer in counseling and therapy, and I am not a big believer that most refusers can joyfully give us the sort of desire and experiences that we want. You and your husband had it at some point, so your situation is a bit more optimistic than some others. As far as getting your needs met elsewhere if he can't meet them, good for you. Without regard to what that will entail, you are making a good move laying that out as a valid consequence. With rare occasion, that will only be a stopgap between where you are now and divorce. Couples that have open relationships stay together because, whether it is cucking or swinging, it is something they like to do together. Having a side guy would likely just give you a taste of what you are missing. Thanks ironhamster. I’m trying to be optimistic. Last night when he got home he was in a funk about something I said earlier in the day. So, we took a few steps backward after the apparent progress from earlier in the day. But that progress was still made.
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 9, 2018 12:45:03 GMT -5
Hi Cats,
BTW, I have 3 cats that do love me and are with me providing me comfort when I sleep.
I'm a little late for this, but I just did the very same thing yesterday with my refuser wife. And I did follow the Baza rules of not saying anything that I was not willing to back up at the moment. Here is what happened to me and how the talk went.
Well today, my wife and I had a talk. This talk was the final talk I'm having with her regarding our marriage relationship.
I laid it all out about the rejection, the 18 years of sexless marriage, the 5 years of no affection , kisses, hugs or "I love you" either spoken or in cards I've received from her. I strongly suggested couples' counseling, which she rejected and then I suggested that we work with a book that I found positive for couples in crisis such as ourselves. We could work on a chapter a week until we completed all the exercises. She said she was not ready for that yet. She said she needed baby steps to be taken to work on this and that we could set aside Sunday afternoons to discuss our weekly action plans.
Update: Today is Sunday and no discussion has taken place. So at this point I'm leaving it up to her on that portion of the plan. If she forgets or chooses to ignore it, I will not be bugging her about it. That will tell me EXACTLY where she stands with it.
Some not so hopeful things came out of the discussion this afternoon. When I suggested that at some point maybe we could be more comfortable with me sleeping with her in the bedroom again, she said No to that. Another thing that makes the outcome not very hopeful was when I asked if she still loved me. She said "I don't know". I told her that I still did love her, because if I didn't, we wouldn't be having this conservation and that I would have already packed and left. The last thing that was not helping me feel very hopeful was at the end of the conservation I asked if we could hug, something we haven't done once in the past 5 years. She said "Sure". When I reached around to her hug her, she left her arms down by her side. She might as well said No or punched me in the stomach as to what she actually did.
We didn't have any more discussions the remainder of the evening except for her telling me dinner was ready.
My time line is now set. If there is very little or no progress towards reestablishing a relationship by January 7, 2019, we will be having "The Talk".(separation/divorce) If there is progress, but not significant progress by July 7, 2019, that is the final date I will stay in this marriage and we will be having "The Talk" on that day.
I picked these dates so I can do as Baza suggests and seek legal advice, housing arrangements, time to get my job stabilized and financial affairs in better shape. But after what happened tonight, I will no longer attempt or hope to engage in any sort of intimacy with her. If she wants intimacy, she will have to initiate it. Again, if nothing happens in the next 6 to 12 months, that's it. But I'm not getting my hopes up at all. I fully expect nothing will happen. That way if she does choose to engage, it will be a surprise for me, but if it doesn't I will not feel any worse than I already do. I know, it might be "reset" sex. Only time will tell. But no matter what, the clock continues to tick. 6-12 months is all that is left to recover this relationship. I'm not waiting for an undisclosed amount of time while she tries to figure out what she wants. She knows exactly what I want and need. I don't know if she will ever be capable of making me happy again, but she has to at least put forth some significant effort. And anytime between the next 6-12 months we reach an impasse on working on this, I'm done. I'm unwilling to continue to stay in this marriage. Tomorrow starts the clock to see what she can do to help recover this marriage. I'm willing to work if she is.
I struggle with the thought I will let my wife down if I decide we are not going anywhere and I leave. But I have passion, desires and needs that I want to share with someone for the remainder of my life and I know someone out there would love and appreciate me and be able to share their wants, needs, passion and desires with me as well. That thought is what drives me to get out of bed every day and go forward.
And if I meet her tomorrow, and the spark is ignited, I will enjoy giving and receiving what I'm so desperately needing, which might push my timeline sooner.
After 18 years, I'm ready to lose my virginity again.
That's how my talk went and where I'm at with my refuser.
So much of this is familiar to me. Did you tell your wife about your timeline?
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okiedude
Junior Member
Learning to live with my Situation.
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Post by okiedude on Jul 9, 2018 15:59:26 GMT -5
catsloveme Sounds like our situations are a lot alike. I love my wife and we are best friends but intamacy is not a priority. After 20 years of marriage. 90% being frustrating sexually. I am tired of sleepless nights and wondering and trying to figure it out. Your plan and conversation give me hope. Because of the frustration and fear I have not had the conversation yet but, your story, if it fails or works gives me hope at peace. I want my marriage to work out I want my family intact but I also want intamacy. We snuggle we kiss (kind of). We hold hands we enjoy each other's company. We usually sleep in the same bed. When it is cold we snuggle but we just don't make love. I look forward to hear how it goes for you. Sounds like most of the people here are much further apart and are at the point of no return. Or we are just kidding ourselves.... Abuse changes a person. That is the same issue with my wife. It is one of the reasons I am more understanding to the issue, but she is afraid of counseling because she doesn't want to open up things she has forgotten. I have been in counseling for 6 months and realize the damage she is doing to me. And the issues I have with lack of intamacy and connections to my awful childhood. I hope to hear good news for once....
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 9, 2018 16:45:56 GMT -5
catsloveme Sounds like our situations are a lot alike. I love my wife and we are best friends but intamacy is not a priority. After 20 years of marriage. 90% being frustrating sexually. I am tired of sleepless nights and wondering and trying to figure it out. Your plan and conversation give me hope. Because of the frustration and fear I have not had the conversation yet but, your story, if it fails or works gives me hope at peace. I want my marriage to work out I want my family intact but I also want intamacy. We snuggle we kiss (kind of). We hold hands we enjoy each other's company. We usually sleep in the same bed. When it is cold we snuggle but we just don't make love. I look forward to hear how it goes for you. Sounds like most of the people here are much further apart and are at the point of no return. Or we are just kidding ourselves.... Abuse changes a person. That is the same issue with my wife. It is one of the reasons I am more understanding to the issue, but she is afraid of counseling because she doesn't want to open up things she has forgotten. I have been in counseling for 6 months and realize the damage she is doing to me. And the issues I have with lack of intamacy and connections to my awful childhood. I hope to hear good news for once.... Hi #okiedude. I don’t know if I’m kidding myself or not, but I feel like I have to have hope. And I have to know, whatever the outcome, that I did everything in my power to make things better. We have had numerous conversations about this over the years, but this time it’s different, and I think my husband and I both know it. It was not an easy conversation, and now we’re both on the hook to move things forward and that’s uncomfortable for us both. But we’re doing it.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 9, 2018 17:38:31 GMT -5
Wishing the best for you catsloveme ! It sounds like you guys had a good discussion and I hope you'll be able to make progress together. Like you and okiedude , my spouse was also a victim of childhood sexual abuse. It has played a major part in his life and in the formation of his self. Unfortunately, even after intensive therapy, there has been no change and I decided I cannot do this any longer. I am glad for the separation at the moment because I know I have done all I could do and I now have hope for a better future. I too I'm not sure if you two are kidding yourselves or not but if the stories we see here on this forum are any indication, you may come to realize in your quest for clarity, that things are worse in your marriage than you are, at this point, admitting to yourselves. I hope for your sakes that is not the case though! This thread (especially the helpful post from ballofconfusion --about 4 posts down) might be of interest to you: iliasm.org/thread/4274/spouses-therapyEDIT: Also this one maybe: iliasm.org/thread/3879/setting-benchmarks-therapy
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okiedude
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Learning to live with my Situation.
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Age Range: 46-50
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Post by okiedude on Jul 9, 2018 19:19:11 GMT -5
catsloveme Sounds like our situations are a lot alike. I love my wife and we are best friends but intamacy is not a priority. After 20 years of marriage. 90% being frustrating sexually. I am tired of sleepless nights and wondering and trying to figure it out. Your plan and conversation give me hope. Because of the frustration and fear I have not had the conversation yet but, your story, if it fails or works gives me hope at peace. I want my marriage to work out I want my family intact but I also want intamacy. We snuggle we kiss (kind of). We hold hands we enjoy each other's company. We usually sleep in the same bed. When it is cold we snuggle but we just don't make love. I look forward to hear how it goes for you. Sounds like most of the people here are much further apart and are at the point of no return. Or we are just kidding ourselves.... Abuse changes a person. That is the same issue with my wife. It is one of the reasons I am more understanding to the issue, but she is afraid of counseling because she doesn't want to open up things she has forgotten. I have been in counseling for 6 months and realize the damage she is doing to me. And the issues I have with lack of intamacy and connections to my awful childhood. I hope to hear good news for once.... Hi #okiedude. I don’t know if I’m kidding myself or not, but I feel like I have to have hope. And I have to know, whatever the outcome, that I did everything in my power to make things better. We have had numerous conversations about this over the years, but this time it’s different, and I think my husband and I both know it. It was not an easy conversation, and now we’re both on the hook to move things forward and that’s uncomfortable for us both. But we’re doing it. PLEASE keep me advised on how this works... I really hope it works out....
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okiedude
Junior Member
Learning to live with my Situation.
Posts: 87
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by okiedude on Jul 9, 2018 19:51:09 GMT -5
Wishing the best for you catsloveme ! It sounds like you guys had a good discussion and I hope you'll be able to make progress together. Like you and okiedude , my spouse was also a victim of childhood sexual abuse. It has played a major part in his life and in the formation of his self. Unfortunately, even after intensive therapy, there has been no change and I decided I cannot do this any longer. I am glad for the separation at the moment because I know I have done all I could do and I now have hope for a better future. I too I'm not sure if you two are kidding yourselves or not but if the stories we see here on this forum are any indication, you may come to realize in your quest for clarity, that things are worse in your marriage than you are, at this point, admitting to yourselves. I hope for your sakes that is not the case though! This thread (especially the helpful post from ballofconfusion --about 4 posts down) might be of interest to you: iliasm.org/thread/4274/spouses-therapyEDIT: Also this one maybe: iliasm.org/thread/3879/setting-benchmarks-therapyThank You choosinghappy that puts some insight into these things and reading about your journey is heartbreaking. ballofconfusion has some good points. I am wondering now if catsloveme and I have a chance. I am not even sure about the amount of abuse my wife endured. She says it was not physical but now I wonder if she even knows. Everyone just wants to be loved and desired. When that is not available, from the person you made the decision to spend the rest of your life with, it is heartbreaking... 20 years of wanting to be the best person I can be, and losing myself in the process. The second article about joining the therapy with the spouse to get the true vision is very interesting. This whole thing is such a sad thing. I really need to let this sink in.....
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