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Post by baza on Jul 3, 2018 19:22:57 GMT -5
In this piece, I am putting myself in the position of being a refuser, and evaluating just how much "at risk" my marriage is of ending.
I am aware - in a roundabout way - that you (my spouse) are not real happy, but I am not real concerned about that, rather, I am way more interested in whether you might upset the applecart....so I am doing a bit of detective work.
First, I am going to see if there is any evidence that you are cheating on me. Unexplained absences might point to this, as might unexplained expenditure, and a look at your bank, phone and email records might prove interesting. But I've found nothing to suggest cheating, so I am not worried about you leaving me for another at this point.
My digging did however uncover your membership of an online group you are in. Some very interesting things you've had to say in there about how pissed off you are, so the next thing I'll try and establish is whether you have been consulting any lawyers in our jurisdiction. Also whether you are salting away any money, and if you have been in extended contact with your sister (who dumped her spouse about a year ago). Additionally, is there any evidence that you are seeing a counsellor, or signs that your support base is expanding. But again, I've found no evidence of any of these things, so I am not worried about you leaving at this point. I know that you have made some veiled threats about leaving, even said it outright that time you snapped a year or so ago, but it came to nothing, just like the time before that.
At this point, I would conclude that there is no credible threat of the marriage ending, so there is no necessity for me to alter anything about what I am doing. What I will be doing, is keeping this under review from time to time.
If, it later emerges that there IS evidence of cheating, consulting lawyers, undertaking therapy, expansion of your support base etc etc etc, well then, I may have a credible threat to my cozy little world, and I'd have to take the matter seriously. Like agreeing to go to counselling, promising to do better, offering up a taste of re-set sex and suchlike. But these are tactics for another day, when needed. Right here and right now, there is no credible threat. I'm good with that, for the moment.
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Post by wom360 on Jul 3, 2018 19:36:02 GMT -5
Credibility. It’s everything.
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 3, 2018 19:46:47 GMT -5
I get the reasoning behind what you're saying, but I don't think we can truly understand a refuser, just as they seem incapable of understanding us. I think most of the time there isn't all that much thought behind it because they aren't missing anything. How can you understand something you can't seem to feel at all?
I actually think it would be valuable to have more refuser types post here, if only for more possible understanding.
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Post by jim44444 on Jul 3, 2018 21:48:51 GMT -5
I get the reasoning behind what you're saying, but I don't think we can truly understand a refuser, just as they seem incapable of understanding us. I think most of the time there isn't all that much thought behind it because they aren't missing anything. How can you understand something you can't seem to feel at all? I actually think it would be valuable to have more refuser types post here, if only for more possible understanding. Unfortunately we have had a few refusers post here and I believe they got scared away.
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Post by flounder on Jul 4, 2018 12:20:55 GMT -5
Maybe they got the hint.
Probably not.
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Post by snowman12345 on Jul 5, 2018 5:36:02 GMT -5
I get the reasoning behind what you're saying, but I don't think we can truly understand a refuser, just as they seem incapable of understanding us. I think most of the time there isn't all that much thought behind it because they aren't missing anything. How can you understand something you can't seem to feel at all? I actually think it would be valuable to have more refuser types post here, if only for more possible understanding. There have been a few. Many of them turned out to be trolls. I remember one guy who was so glad he had to have surgery that made him incapable of sex "I finally have a reason not to do it anymore" or some such nonsense. When he was asked how his spouse felt about it, there wasn't much of an answer. So, baza has it right, I think, the refuser's motivation is all about what effects them - that has also been my experience with my W too.
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 5, 2018 8:58:49 GMT -5
So, baza has it right, I think, the refuser's motivation is all about what effects them - that has also been my experience with my W too. That goes both ways I think. And there's not necessarily anything wrong with that, everyone cares about what has an impact on their lives.
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Post by snowman12345 on Jul 6, 2018 5:09:14 GMT -5
So, baza has it right, I think, the refuser's motivation is all about what effects them - that has also been my experience with my W too. That goes both ways I think. And there's not necessarily anything wrong with that, everyone cares about what has an impact on their lives. Nothing necessarily wrong, but in an SM there is an apathy/empathy dynamic that takes place; or rather doesn't take place as it should. The refusing member of the relationship has what they want and can see that their partner is miserable (empathy), but does not care enough to help (apathy). What should take place is empathy - "oh, I see my partner is miserable" and then commiseration, "I feel bad for my partner, let me help".
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 6, 2018 6:38:20 GMT -5
Agreed, with varying severity as seen by stories here.
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Post by elynne on Jul 6, 2018 9:18:30 GMT -5
That goes both ways I think. And there's not necessarily anything wrong with that, everyone cares about what has an impact on their lives. Nothing necessarily wrong, but in an SM there is an apathy/empathy dynamic that takes place; or rather doesn't take place as it should. The refusing member of the relationship has what they want and can see that their partner is miserable (empathy), but does not care enough to help (apathy). What should take place is empathy - "oh, I see my partner is miserable" and then commiseration, "I feel bad for my partner, let me help". I think my h breaks down at the first step - he doesn’t understand empathy. The word compassion baffles him. If I need to get him to see my point of view I ask him to humor me with an intellectual exercise. “Let’s pretend the roles were reversed. Let’s say I.... How would you feel?” It’s still pulling teeth and lots of prompting.
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Post by baza on Jul 16, 2018 2:52:03 GMT -5
Your spouse may well "not understand" empathy.
It is not your job to help, cajole, debate, reason, or otherwise try and change his view.
It has been said (or quoted) on here somewhere (can't recall by who) --------- ----"It is not the empaths job to try change the spouse, particularly when the spouse does not want to change"----
To that I'd just add this - *You* can't change him in any sustainable sense. Any more than he can change you in any sustainable sense.
Now given the history, he has been able to temporarily change you into a doormat - up to a point. But that point of non-sustainability has now arrived. You have caught a clue. More clues will follow. You will likely grass a fair few of these clues, but you will also start catching a few more.
And when you have caught enough clues, you'll give him the arse.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 16, 2018 8:18:39 GMT -5
I get the reasoning behind what you're saying, but I don't think we can truly understand a refuser, just as they seem incapable of understanding us. I think most of the time there isn't all that much thought behind it because they aren't missing anything. How can you understand something you can't seem to feel at all? I actually think it would be valuable to have more refuser types post here, if only for more possible understanding. ihadalove, Refusers are very easy to understand. Their thinking is very simple. The hard part is accepting what they are thinking. There are places on the Internet where refusers can be found in abundance and you can engage them all you want. I’ve done that. That’s why I’m convinced the only solution is to leave. Because when pressed to justify enforcing celibacy on their partners, their answer always devolves into “if you don’t like it just leave”.
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Post by WindSister on Jul 16, 2018 8:51:10 GMT -5
Not just refusers. Anyone afraid of change, rocking the boat, conflict. People complain but are terrified of making actual change. One will remain with status quo until that is more painful than the pain that comes from making a change.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 16, 2018 9:23:03 GMT -5
Elynne said: "I think my h breaks down at the first step - he doesn’t understand empathy. The word compassion baffles him.
If I need to get him to see my point of view I ask him to humor me with an intellectual exercise. “Let’s pretend the roles were reversed. Let’s say I.... How would you feel?” It’s still pulling teeth and lots of prompting."
While you weren't aware of this when you married, am I correct in assuming that now you realize that a person who lacks compassion and empathy is not one to have a romantic relationship or friendship with. They are incapable of considering anyone's needs but their own. In all of your dealings with him including with the divorce, custody, etc., it will be important to keep that in mind.
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