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Post by baza on Aug 3, 2018 8:12:29 GMT -5
Vibe I get is that the rabbi doesn't exactly pull his fair share of the weight in your deal Sister workingonit - particularly with the assorted issues surrounding your kid. But I may be misreading that. And in any event, I guess "any" help you can get is valuable at the moment, even if such help is not equal to what you are putting in. Anyway, that's not really a topic you raised, plus there is probably piss all you could do about it anyway...at this moment. I would counsel strongly against telling the rabbi that you want to separate at this time. It is imperative that you get your legal advice etc all teed up before you do that. I guess by default that would make turfing him out to the spare room as possibly contra-indicated on the same logic. I do think that under the circumstances you are entitled to ask - actually no, not ask - but rather DEMAND his increased input into the care / supervision of your (and HIS) kid...I think that is a stand alone issue under the circumstances. Legal advice etc first I'd suggest. Then review. Meantime I think the kid takes centre stage. This is a shit situation Sister workingonit . Feeling for you.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 3, 2018 8:18:08 GMT -5
Why does all the responsibility and burden of the mental health of your youngest fall on your shoulders? Fathers have just as much responsibility, rights, and moral duty to be helping, directing, leading, guiding and raising of their sons as you do.
You need to hand half (or more) of that over to Mr. " far more intelligent" . Or have you been snow-balled into thinking "his work is far too important, he doesn't have the time, he has more important things to worry about?"
It also sounds like he is using this against you. "He doesn't love you but he sure loves having you around" ie.- His soft cushy job with it's grand tittle, gives him to much leverage to shirk all his other duties as Husband, and father. Meanwhile there's this wonderful mask of "look at our happy family" Time to remove the mask, you think he's ever going to do that? Why? He's having all the hard work done for him!
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Post by workingonit on Aug 3, 2018 8:31:44 GMT -5
No baza you are not misreading. The burden of my son has always fallen more to me and has long been a deep point of contention and difficulty in our marriage. In our therapy work this featured big time. And no greatcoastal I will not insist on 50/50. I have done that in the past but it does not work. There are so many patterns of avoidance that are similar to SM in how he parents this child- head in the sand avoidance. But I have been stronger on this than on our SM. However nothing I have done has changed his behavior ever. Why then do I need him for this? Well, I cannot further destabilize my son at this time with separate homes. But also for pratical things like making sure my son gets to school in the morning, making sure he is home by curfew when I am not there. I literally cannot be the sole financial support and parent a high need kid alone right now. And yes, you all read that right. I am basically the sole financial support (my h gets a stipend from his school). And yes, baza, this is a shitty situation. Thank God I have a good support network. I have 3 best friends that know everything and text or call me daily with support and love and offers of help. I have an excellent personal counselor. I have a sister and father that know everything and are always available by phone. I have a supportive community that does not know everything but knows about my son and offers help and support. I am blessed even though I am challenged by circumstances.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 3, 2018 8:50:08 GMT -5
Let me throw this in here ( it may be totally wrong, and I am sorry if it is) My sons needed discipline, tough love. My ex would stand in the way of that. my ways where to strict, wrong, not correct,etc... (you get the picture). So I would cowar, back off, and think " fine! you handle it, if my ways are so wrong you do it". Only to see that 95% of her methods where pretty much the same as mine, only it had to be done her way. A real helicopter mom.
These avoidance tactics have had a long term ripple effect on my sons. Things I can not change. It reached the breaking point of, "the best I can do is help myself,and someday my sons will have to do the same". My door will remain open (with boundaries-the same ones that were there in the first place).
Like the prodigal son story.
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 3, 2018 9:30:21 GMT -5
workingonit, you should be able to split rooms without broaching the subject of separation yet. From what you describe, it seems a simple case to make for him to change rooms.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 3, 2018 9:42:37 GMT -5
workingonit , you should be able to split rooms without broaching the subject of separation yet. From what you describe, it seems a simple case to make for him to change rooms. In all seriousness, what would his reaction be if he comes home and finds his things moved to the spare room,all set up? That would be a big step in standing up for yourself. My manipulative controlling ex wife did just that, she moved out of the master bedroom, moved the kids beds around and set up her own bedroom in our enclosed back porch/pool table room, (that also gave her a very controlling view of the entire house) with zero communication to me. She also used the children to help her do all this. This was also one of those times when I felt I had every right to tell my kids " this was all your mothers planning, I had no say in this and nothing to do with it". When she was going to make that bold, open and obvious a statement for the entire family, I had every reason to have my side heard too. Expect such reactions from the family, the fake mask starts to be removed.
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Post by shamwow on Aug 3, 2018 13:09:15 GMT -5
Hi all! Checking back in on this thread with an update. So my zipcode therapy ends today and I have been reflecting on what I have gotten from it. Two main and very opposing pieces of clarity have come to me: 1. I am ready to move forward with separation. My h keeps insisting he is changing and that he is "so sorry" for years of neglect. But there has been irreparable damage done to an already (always) weak part of our relationship (intimacy). If you run over someone's foot and break all their bones you may be very sorry, they may forgive you totally, but that foot is still broken. No, I have not consulted a lawyer yet. I know I need to. HOWEVER... 2. My time alone with my youngest has lead me to see how precarious his mental health is at this moment. Now, this has always been an issue and some times are more intense than others. This is just another acute moment. He is also about to restart school after a 2.5 year hiatus due to a complete breakdown. This is a delicate moment that has been made more delicate and problematic by his recent infatuation with marijuana. I have been meeting with support, getting resources in place, spending endless hours with him, etc. Ot has been a seriously busy 2 weeks of parenting. He needs to be my priority now. Also, having another adult in the house is critical for this moment- I just cannot be in so many places at once. So, nothing practical (like moving out) is going to change in my marriage because that must go on the back burner for now for my son. I feel like I need to be authentic and tell my h I want to separate. I am considering asking him to move to the guest room and continue living together as roommates and coparents until we can revisit when things are less delicate. I cannot picture my h becoming angry and resentful and shoring up for a battle in this scenario but having read enough on this board I am still concerned that can happen. You all make me think a dark demon can emerge when the d word is mentioned. Your thoughts? What pitfalls may I be missing? Is it stupid to bring up separating right now? I do have a plan in my head for what divorce could look like financially but it relies on it being peaceful, which I am not in control of! A dark demon may or may not emerge. No way to tell for sure in advance. What I guarantee you will see emerge is your husband's true self. You, of course, have far better insight of how angelic or demonic that person is. You also have no control over it. Be wary.
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Post by choosinghappy on Aug 4, 2018 6:17:47 GMT -5
workingonit , you should be able to split rooms without broaching the subject of separation yet. From what you describe, it seems a simple case to make for him to change rooms. In all seriousness, what would his reaction be if he comes home and finds his things moved to the spare room,all set up? That would be a big step in standing up for yourself. My manipulative controlling ex wife did just that, she moved out of the master bedroom, moved the kids beds around and set up her own bedroom in our enclosed back porch/pool table room, (that also gave her a very controlling view of the entire house) with zero communication to me. She also used the children to help her do all this. This was also one of those times when I felt I had every right to tell my kids " this was all your mothers planning, I had no say in this and nothing to do with it". When she was going to make that bold, open and obvious a statement for the entire family, I had every reason to have my side heard too. Expect such reactions from the family, the fake mask starts to be removed. And how did you feel when she did that greatcoastal? I suspect it made things rather contentious which is what @workingonit wants (and needs, at this point) to avoid so they can continue working together to keep things stable for their son. Adding additional stresses likely is not a good move right now but I do agree with DryCreek that asking him to move into the spare room (without even having to mention separation) should not be too difficult. He knows you guys are having issues, you can state your mental health as a reason for it. It seems to me that your honesty with him has always been a boon to your marriage so I would continue on that path right now. Also, just wanted to say that I am sorry for your challenges right now @workingonit. There are different issues between us with our sons of course, but I can understand some of what you're feeling - especially with the brunt of it all being on your shoulders while also juggling an unhappy marriage. You are handling it all with grace and strength. ((Hugs)) I am glad to hear you have a good support network.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 4, 2018 7:46:29 GMT -5
In all seriousness, what would his reaction be if he comes home and finds his things moved to the spare room,all set up? That would be a big step in standing up for yourself. My manipulative controlling ex wife did just that, she moved out of the master bedroom, moved the kids beds around and set up her own bedroom in our enclosed back porch/pool table room, (that also gave her a very controlling view of the entire house) with zero communication to me. She also used the children to help her do all this. This was also one of those times when I felt I had every right to tell my kids " this was all your mothers planning, I had no say in this and nothing to do with it". When she was going to make that bold, open and obvious a statement for the entire family, I had every reason to have my side heard too. Expect such reactions from the family, the fake mask starts to be removed. And how did you feel when she did that greatcoastal ? I suspect it made things rather contentious which is what @workingonit wants (and needs, at this point) to avoid so they can continue working together to keep things stable for their son. Adding additional stresses likely is not a good move right now but I do agree with DryCreek that asking him to move into the spare room (without even having to mention separation) should not be too difficult. He knows you guys are having issues, you can state your mental health as a reason for it. It seems to me that your honesty with him has always been a boon to your marriage so I would continue on that path right now. Also, just wanted to say that I am sorry for your challenges right now @workingonit. There are different issues between us with our sons of course, but I can understand some of what you're feeling - especially with the brunt of it all being on your shoulders while also juggling an unhappy marriage. You are handling it all with grace and strength. ((Hugs)) I am glad to hear you have a good support network. That's a good question, I'm glad you asked,and I like your take on the subject. It made me feel relieved,and disrespected at the same time. It was a two sided coin. Being in separate rooms ment I no longer had to sleep with my knees hanging off the side of the bed to avoid any contact with someone who did not want to be with me. It meant no more morning avoidance when getting dressed, no more being woken up 5 times a night from her using the bathroom. No more of her breathing tubes coming undone and making loud hissing sounds. My closed door meant nothing to her and she felt she could walk in anytime she pleased, no knocking and leave the doors open when she left constantly. It certainly confirmed that things were going to be different. The other side of that coin was how the whole event was handled. There was zero communication about it. In @workingonit case that sounds like what is needed, to her advantage. She has already stated what happens when she attempts the least amount of change towards improvement, it ends up being a one way street and he gets his way. Her honesty is met with denial and avoidance, over and over again. Mostly due to his manipulation during communicating, so the next step is to take some action. There were other alternatives on how separate rooms could have been handled at our house. I won't go into it all,however there are many rooms in the house that could have been used, instead of the open back room for everyone to have to walk through and see when using the house. (having the FIL take up an entire bedroom was a whole nother issue)
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Post by workingonit on Aug 6, 2018 21:04:54 GMT -5
Thanks for sticking with me those of you who are still reading this long thread! It is even more helpful than journalling!
So....that did not go well. And then things got.....weird? Reset-y? IDK, jury is still out.
I told my h that I thought separation if not divorce was inevitable. That I was ready for that. I also told him that I feel like for this year minimally it is not possible to live separately because our son needs too much help at the moment. That was as far as I got before he totally broke down. The very long and involved and tense and miserable conversation became about his pain about that. He was in turns devastated, then angry, then accusatory. Such came out of his mouth as "you are sabotaging our chances," and "It is hard to be the only one trying," and "I feel like you are pulling out of our relationship and that feels incredibly lonely." I remained calm and discussed these points, admitted blame when it was mine to admit, calmly pointed out that the relationship has been lonely for a very long time, that I know very well what it is like to be the only one trying, etc. But I remained calm and compassionate.
THEN he said "It is unfair that you are rejecting me at the same time you are asking me to step up (in terms of our son)" Those of you who are getting the sense of who I am probably can guess that I LOST MY SHIT. I absolutely released the kraken on him. I never do that. I am always cautious with his feelings. He hates anger and becomes very shut down around it. I realized in that moment I did not give a shit. He was wrong and he was going to hear it. Well, what I said was mostly about him and my son (so I won't share it here) although I did point out that the same way he has avoided being a father to our son he has avoided being a husband to me- because both required some level of confrontation and being uncomfortable. I also said "It is hard AF to parent him alone but I CAN do it if I need to. He needs you to step up. I do not. You are not doing ME a favor by being a good father. You are just being a good father. But you have always made the choice that is comfortable for you and you likely will again. I will help him through having a shitty father if I have to. And I will get what I need too. Don't you dare put our son's health and well being into our relationship like a fucking bargaining chip." (said with volume and a bit of venom, to be honest)
Suffice it so say I was pissed. I took a long walk after delivering that last bit, needing a break. And he was a mess and I did not want to deal with him. When I came back he was conciliatory, said I was right, said he did not know why he said that, etc etc. We talked a bit more but then had family dinner, time with kids, etc.
The next 2 days were a weird mindfuck. He was nice and polite and went out of his way to do things he knows I like but never does- like home owner stuff and going the extra mile and taking some initiative (other than just doing things I have asked him to do). Then last night we went to a concert with friends. This is something I love that he sometimes joins me for but does not always enjoy. He was oddly flirty with me, telling me how beautiful I looked, making jokes with me. My best friend was with us and was like WTF because my h is NEVER like that.
When we got home he told me he is determined to change and he is "coming for me." I did not respond. (my assessment is that this is his version of a reset but since he has not actually done any of the work on the issues that have him blocked from his own sexuality he cannot actually reset anything other than with words and housework and flirting- that is my guess) Huh. FML
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Post by JMX on Aug 6, 2018 21:41:30 GMT -5
Lordy. Do I know that? Yes, yes I do. It bought me two more years of SM. Sure, he does some shit now. He makes a point to kiss me on his way to work. He has been more helpful around the house.
But... I remain “itchy”. The parts where he needed to be a good father, you have brought to light - and... maybe he is changing.
The parts where he needs to be a good husband? He’s probably not capable. I read so much of myself in you. Just trying to be a warning bell - 2-3 years down the road of your “seriousness”.
I get it.
I am serious now!! Promise. Work with me on divorce.
No! I mean it! I am SERIOUS.
Nothing changes. Sigh.
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Post by baza on Aug 6, 2018 21:43:10 GMT -5
I think you whacked this fair on the head when you said - "It is hard AF to parent him alone but I CAN do it if I need to...." Because that's the truth. If you have to, you do. That's true for you, me, all of us. I guess the next thing is your evaluation about whether you are going to "need to" (parent the kid pretty much alone). Here's a probably un-helpful viewpoint. It reads like you have pretty much been doing this (the hard bits of being a parent) solo anyway. It reads like that's "normal" in your dynamic. Were you to split, that particular aspect of the dynamic wouldn't actually be altering a real lot. So any "extra" assistance he can give you now is something of a bonus, even if it doesn't last too long. I am figuring that your kids issue is NOT one of those deals where you can see that "given 6 months more treatment then things ought be way better" but is rather more indefinite than that. In other words it is going to be a long haul. Taken from that viewpoint, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference were you to give the rabbi the arse (if that's the way you are leaning) tomorrow or in 6 months. You are still going to be the parent doing the hard bits either way. I'll float this past you Sister workingonit . You are juggling a few different items here, dud husband, kid with issues, your own right to self determination to mention the obvious. If you could offload just one of those items, life might get a bit easier (in relative terms) and you might handle the other items a fair bit better than you presently can. Which item ? I think your spouse has actually elected himself for the heave-ho by his own actions. It all reads like he is not a contributor to the relationship resources, indeed he comes across as being a depletor of them. Rotten situation you are dealing with Sister workingonit . Somethings got to give....and he looks to be the obvious candidate.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 6, 2018 22:14:26 GMT -5
Your H also played the DARVO ( Deny, Avoid, Reversal,they are the Victim and you are the Offender) card on you. However you had your teflon hat on and where ready to do battle. BRAVO! Continue to lean on your support network ,and strengthen it by seeing an attorney. I'm sorry you were handed a stale shitload double decker reset sandwich! Fortunately you will send it back and demand a refund and find a new restaurant! Thank you baza for your excellent wording! It goes back to when I mentioned "if your H was hit by the bus". Also todays 18 yrs old 'adult' is now more 22 yrs. old. You may do more help for your son by showing an example of strength, determination, and self improvement by starting your own new journey towards a life of joy?
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Post by workingonit on Sept 9, 2018 17:08:19 GMT -5
This seems to be the thread I update on my story so I will continue.
I have been pretty quiet on here recently, just quietly struggling in my process. My h and I have continued to have some long and very interesting conversations. About a month ago I put some boundaries on these very difficult conversations and he is mostly following that, which is better. Now we are only having them once a week, for 2 hours max. We are not doing therapy at the moment- the therapist even agreed that it would be more useful for him to work on himself before we try to do any more work together. He does not really agree. The main thing I have seen in these discussions more and more is that he is stuck in delusion.
In June I wrote that I was willing to participate in whatever he initiated. That is no longer true. I have reached a new level of clarity. I believe my marriage, such as it is, is really over. My h is still trying to "fix" it but as he is unwilling to really look at the heart of the problem which is his deep insecurity and inability to face intimacy, there is no real hope that anything will change. He is instead trying to be really nice and considerate to me which is annoying mostly but sometimes ok. Of course, that was never the real problem in our relationship so it has no hope of actually changing anything. In the meantime he is actually MORE afraid and insecure now than ever before because a) I am actually on my way out and b) I am no longer offering him reassurances and trying desperately to bolster his self esteem. When I lavished him with praise and promised to always be with him he still was absolutely frozen with fear and insecurity around intimacy. I am no longer playing that role for him. I am no longer playing any role for him at all. I am working on recovering my own self esteem, my squashed power, my sexuality, my repressed love of adventure. And the world seems to be responding! I have had several friends compliment me lately with real feedback on how my energy and vitality have shifted. I have had a few men hit on me- mostly innocently- enough to make me feel like I really am recovering my sexual energy which has been long buried.
As I have said before, separating right now is not right. My older son just started his senior year in high school with 5 AP classes, applications for college, a new job, etc. He needs stability. My younger son has serious mental health challenges and is trying to transition to school after 3 years of homeschooling during a breakdown. The first week has been...not good. He takes the majority of my energy, my focus. He takes up lots of the air in the whole house. And he does not have a real relationship with my h (yes, H's fault) so the burden of his mental health does fall naturally to me. They need the stability right now. There is no way for my h and I to have separate homes financially without selling this one, which would mean moving for the kids, which is not in their best interest right now. So at least 1 more year here in this living configuration. I may only make it by the skin of my teeth!
As @shynjdude pointed out, this is the end of the Jewish year and the start of the next one. This is a huge moment spiritually for us Jews and introspection is a big part of this time of the year. In that spirit I want to say that the growth that I have had (going from having never spoken about my SM for 7 years to being on the verge of leaving 2 years later, knowing that I will be ok and that I deserve to be loved, almost free of shame) has so very much to do with this group. You all have been a lifeline and better than therapists! Your perspective has been precious, your humor keeps me sane, your struggles are instructive, your sexual exploits awaken me. I am so very grateful for this group.
Thank you for sharing who you are, for seeing me and reflecting what you see. May we all have a year of growth, fun, love, authenticity, and joy!
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Post by sadkat on Sept 9, 2018 17:34:16 GMT -5
workingonit- we will walk this path together and encourage one another along the way. Isn’t it nice to finally be free of some of the negativity? I’m actually enjoying how nice my h is being. Makes my life a little easier. One step at a time! Maybe this time next year we’ll both be celebrating a new life with lots of sex and intimacy- however that might look like. Hugs to you!
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