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Post by nyctos on Jul 9, 2018 17:29:04 GMT -5
I think zero sex is better than 6 times per year. The emotional roller coaster and feeling of rejection isn't the same when you just have zero sex. Zero is closer to the end state: divorce, rebirth and new found happiness. Starting year 4, I find it hard to agree that its better. I don't remember 6 times a year well enough to compare (that was maybe... 9 years ago). Actually,I was shocked 10 times per year is considered sexless. I feel like once a month would be great. (Of course, more would be better -- three times a month and I might even feel like a normal human).
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 11, 2018 3:00:32 GMT -5
I think zero sex is better than 6 times per year. The emotional roller coaster and feeling of rejection isn't the same when you just have zero sex. Zero is closer to the end state: divorce, rebirth and new found happiness. Starting year 4, I find it hard to agree that its better. I don't remember 6 times a year well enough to compare (that was maybe... 9 years ago). Actually,I was shocked 10 times per year is considered sexless. I feel like once a month would be great. (Of course, more would be better -- three times a month and I might even feel like a normal human). Don't bet on feeling better if frequency increases but that only reveals a lack of desire. Sex with a partner that only wants to placate you is not fun. It is painful enough to hasten the process of leaving.
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Post by elynne on Jul 11, 2018 3:33:30 GMT -5
okiedude - I don’t think you are the first in the SM to “stray from the vows” I see unilaterally-imposed celibacy as straying from her vow to “have and to hold” and “to love and to cherish” - I mean, I think that’s the part that’s about sex (because what’re they gonna do - SAY “and to root” right there in the church?) So maybe you see 8-10 times per year as “not celibate” and maybe that is adding to the angst. As well, maybe the fact that when she deigns to “give you” a taste, it’s not bad. I had neither of those “problems” to cloud the issue in my SM, and I guess I’m grateful for that, really. Three years of pure celibacy made it exceedingly clear which spouse abandoned his vow in my marriage. And that did make it easier to walk away from my 17-yr marriage. Wishing you clarity. And the ability to value, and honor, your needs. I never thought about her vow to "have and to hold" and "to love and to cherish". I do think I made a vow to never have sex with anyone else but her, not a vow to never have sex at all. Thank you for your input. I wish that that there was a "script" on how to talk to your mate about sexual frustration that covered the normal objections to having sex. I can understand physical constraints but when there is no obvious issue that is when the damage is done. Somewhere in the resources section I posted a script about talking to a spouse about sexual frustration. I’ll see if I can dig it up.
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Post by WindSister on Jul 11, 2018 6:45:10 GMT -5
Agree with the breaking of the vows talk here. I saw something that struck me... "I sexually and romantically pursue my partner because in doing so I strengthen my love for him/her."
Too many spouses miss that message.
Without the sex, it's not a romantic bond. It's not a marriage. To me it's a black and white situation. Feelings will be there... "familiarity" can sometimes feel like love. But without sex, it's not a romantic partnership. Period. End of story.
When you step away and experience it in a romantically healthy relationship, there's no comparison.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 11, 2018 8:03:12 GMT -5
Agree with the breaking of the vows talk here. I saw something that struck me... "I sexually and romantically pursue my partner because in doing so I strengthen my love for him/her." Too many spouses miss that message. Without the sex, it's not a romantic bond. It's not a marriage. To me it's a black and white situation. Feelings will be there... "familiarity" can sometimes feel like love. But without sex, it's not a romantic partnership. Period. End of story. When you step away and experience it in a romantically healthy relationship, there's no comparison. I love this WindSister.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 11, 2018 9:39:07 GMT -5
I never thought about her vow to "have and to hold" and "to love and to cherish". I do think I made a vow to never have sex with anyone else but her, not a vow to never have sex at all. Thank you for your input. I wish that that there was a "script" on how to talk to your mate about sexual frustration that covered the normal objections to having sex. I can understand physical constraints but when there is no obvious issue that is when the damage is done. Hi guys! Been awhile! The "To Have and To Hold" vow is traditionally and absolutely the Quid Pro Quo of the Monogamy contract. It is highly doubtful that the framers of the basic marital contract, thousands of years ago, intended marriage to be a license to enforce celibacy. CitationI cited a Christian based website because most people here probably are, and it was the first credible link I found. That's not my faith. I guess you could have fun trying to google credible sources for the history of "To Have And To Hold" and the other vows, in various religious contexts. Interestingly, that site does not list "To Forsake All Others", but wraps it into "To Love and Cherish" by vague implication, and suggesting it is a valid add-on vow. The problem here is that our culture has no respect at all for the "Have and Hold" vow, and places all importance on the vow of Fidelity (if you even uttered it, according to that site). So in practice, our culture encourages a License To Enforce Celibacy in marriage. Which is why people should think three times or more before ever marrying. This has all been highly encouraged in recent years with the obsession over "body autonomy" which, if you think about it, is totally contradictory to the idea of the Quid Pro Quo of monogamy. As far as a script to talk your way into a happy sexual relationship, good luck. I don't think anyone has ever figured out a way to talk themselves into more than duty sex. But if I'm wrong I look forward to that script!
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 9:51:23 GMT -5
“The problem here is that our culture has no respect at all for the "Have and Hold" vow, and places all importance on the vow of Fidelity (if you even uttered it, according to that site). So in practice, our culture encourages a License To Enforce Celibacy in marriage. Which is why people should think three times or more before ever marrying.”
“Our culture” depends on whom you surround yourself with. When I started telling friends about my sm, they were the ones who labeled the sexlessness as abusive and dysfunctional. They wondered why I stayed married. I learned that my associates viewed sex as important and as an essential part of marriage. They also viewed sexlessness as good reason to divorce.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 11, 2018 9:57:08 GMT -5
Agree with the breaking of the vows talk here. I saw something that struck me... "I sexually and romantically pursue my partner because in doing so I strengthen my love for him/her." Too many spouses miss that message. Without the sex, it's not a romantic bond. It's not a marriage. To me it's a black and white situation. Feelings will be there... "familiarity" can sometimes feel like love. But without sex, it's not a romantic partnership. Period. End of story. When you step away and experience it in a romantically healthy relationship, there's no comparison. I think the problem is that many or most refusers have the mindset of "All you think about is sex!" and "Is that all you want from me!" (which is ridiculous if you've been celibate for years, but try turning that one around and see where it gets you). This is like trying to turn a Republican into a Democrat (or vice versa). You are absolutely positively right. Tough sell job though. Part of the problem is that we see sex as a bonding experience. But refusers do not. They cannot comprehend the idea. Supposedly some very sexual people (high libido) also do not, they just see it as "It's great but it's just sex". They are probably among that likely minority that cheat no matter how good the marital sex is.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 10:05:05 GMT -5
“I think the problem is that many or most refusers have the mindset of "All you think about is sex!" and "Is that all you want from me!" (which is ridiculous if you've been celibate for years, but try turning that one around and see where it gets you).”
A problem is that the refused don’t hold refusers accountable when refusers take sex out of marriage. Sex is a normal, enjoyable and expected part of marriage but the refused act embarrassed or ashamed to push for it or to end a marriage that lacks the one thing that differentiates it from being a roommate situation. And if one has gone weeks, months, years, decades without sex, it is laughable if one’s spouse claims sex is all you think about. Their not thinking about it at all is what’s abnormal and problematic.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 11, 2018 10:09:37 GMT -5
“The problem here is that our culture has no respect at all for the "Have and Hold" vow, and places all importance on the vow of Fidelity (if you even uttered it, according to that site). So in practice, our culture encourages a License To Enforce Celibacy in marriage. Which is why people should think three times or more before ever marrying.” “Our culture” depends on whom you surround yourself with. When I started telling friends about my sm, they were the ones who labeled the sexlessness as abusive and dysfunctional. They wondered why I stayed married. I learned that my associates viewed sex as important and as an essential part of marriage. They also viewed sexlessness as good reason to divorce. The acid test of my assertion (actually 2): Over the course of your life (and everyone you know) you've probably had at least a dozen situations where someone you know announces their spouse has cheated them. You surely commiserated and agreed with them that their partner was a dickhead (or female equivalent). I suspect that never once have you ever asked this simple question, that as a long term DB sufferer should be quite obvious: "When's the last time you fucked them?" I'm probably guilty of that too. Second acid test: You have an affair and you are discovered. Your spouse announces to their world that you are a cheating dickhead (or equivalent). You are now dog meat to everyone you know, and no one ever asks the circumstances that lead up to it. Or wants to hear about it. And try explaining it to your kids (I'm an exception on that one (my parent) but I believe I'm rare in understanding the real deal). When the rubber hits the road there is only one vow that anyone really cares about.
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Post by JMX on Jul 11, 2018 10:09:38 GMT -5
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Post by beachguy on Jul 11, 2018 10:15:51 GMT -5
“I think the problem is that many or most refusers have the mindset of "All you think about is sex!" and "Is that all you want from me!" (which is ridiculous if you've been celibate for years, but try turning that one around and see where it gets you).” A problem is that the refused don’t hold refusers accountable when refusers take sex out of marriage. Sex is a normal, enjoyable and expected part of marriage but the refused act embarrassed or ashamed to push for it or to end a marriage that lacks the one thing that differentiates it from being a roommate situation. And if one has gone weeks, months, years, decades without sex, it is laughable if one’s spouse claims sex is all you think about. Their not thinking about it at all is what’s abnormal and problematic. The core problem is that most people refuse to put the marriage on the line. Without doing that, there is no reasoning. Even here, after years of celibacy, it takes years and incredible emotional pain to get to a space where the marriage is truly and seriously put on the line (not a credibility destroying bluff).
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Post by beachguy on Jul 11, 2018 10:21:12 GMT -5
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Post by beachguy on Jul 11, 2018 10:30:02 GMT -5
And if one has gone weeks, months, years, decades without sex, it is laughable if one’s spouse claims sex is all you think about. Their not thinking about it at all is what’s abnormal and problematic. Yes, it is laughable. Among us. But among all the readers here, surely someone has a partner that does this frequently. So... have the following conversation and report back the results: "All you're interested in is sex" "No, dear, we haven't had sex in 6 months. If that was all I was interested in I would have left xx years ago" Report back your results. This is science! You may need some thick skin if you do this experiment. If not familiar, look up Gottman's Four Horsemen. Signs of a failed relationship. Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt and Stonewalling This is the QuadFecta. All 4 at once, in one sentence by the refuser.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 11:12:52 GMT -5
“Yes, it is laughable. Among us. But among all the readers here, surely someone has a partner that does this frequently. ”
Probably lots have partners like that. Not countering with the truth adds to the refused’s problems. Not making it crystal clear that the refused view desiring sex as healthy and a normal expected part of marriage adds to the problems by allowing the marriage to continue while the refuser thinks you agree with them. If telling the truth results in a huge blowup that ends the relationship you’ve avoided years of remaining in a hopelessly incompatible marriage.
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