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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 7:54:26 GMT -5
As I try to picture a future without the woman I've been married to for 31 years, a speedbump (not roadblock yet, but something) that I keep running up against is that I still care about my refuser.
Even though I know I have documented some pretty bad behavior and I know we are not compatible, I have spent decades caring about her and trying to do things to make her life easier. Sometimes she notices and appreciates it, often not, but in the end she is a big part of my life and of course the mother to my kids.
I know that divorce will hurt her a great deal. Her sense of security that comes from her reliable, income producing and even tempered husband is very important to her. We were saving money for retirement. All that is going to disappear.
She will be unmoored, depressed, who knows - maybe suicidal. As much as I feel that she resents me, she is utterly dependent on me, emotionally as well as monetarily. When her mind goes in cycles and she's stuck, she knows she can talk things out with me and I can get her out of the cycle so she can move on.
I know intellectually that I do not want to be stuck with her until I die, that I deserve happiness on my own, that I deserve to be loved. But I like finding win-win solutions. I HATE knowing that my (only potential) future happiness is based on someone else's definite pain. I HATE hurting people. All my life I'd rather absorb the pain myself than let someone else feel it. (Again, bitterly ironically, my wife would disagree strenuously with that and say that I've caused her unimaginable amounts of pain with my crimes of commission and omission.)
Yes, it is possible that after the shock she will get her shit together, get a job, find a rewarding life without being dependent on me. And it is possible she won't, that she'll fall apart.
How can I not feel responsible for her? How can I stop caring? After years of being as caring as possible, how do I turn it off? I don't want to hate her.
Am I missing something?
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 18, 2018 8:34:43 GMT -5
Gosh I can really relate to your post because in my marriage I did EVERYTHING- shop, cook, clean, pay the bills, take care of the kids. Mr. Bballgirl worked then came home and sat on the couch and watched tv. I remember thinking when I divorce him will he know what to buy? When I divorced him he had to go get his own health insurance with his employer. It was just going to be a big lifestyle change. I remembered the day he was served he said to me "I'm going to lose the health insurance but you don't care". I looked at him with a straight face and said "you're right I don't".
You aren't her father, she is an adult , and she should have been an adult and a loving woman and made you feel loved.
Don't put that emotional baggage on yourself just be fair and equitable in the divorce.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 9:04:01 GMT -5
But that is my entire question, bballgirl. Yes, my wife goes to lots of doctors that are out of network, she will lose all out of network insurance. She won't be able to afford it. I can't say to her "I don't care." I do!
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 18, 2018 9:30:24 GMT -5
But that is my entire question, bballgirl. Yes, my wife goes to lots of doctors that are out of network, she will lose all out of network insurance. She won't be able to afford it. I can't say to her "I don't care." I do! I have an aunt that they are separated but still legally married so she can stay on his insurance as well for other financial reasons.
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 18, 2018 9:33:41 GMT -5
Most women outlive their husbands by 11 years.... you are fooling yourself if you think you can take care of your wife forever.
You can choose in a divorce settlement to pay for her insurance.
Your wife also can choose doctors within network.
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 18, 2018 9:43:22 GMT -5
For me it wasn't about stop caring as much as it was start caring about myself more. And of course I cared about him and love him at a family level it's just not romantic passionate love.
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Post by mescaline on Jun 18, 2018 11:08:19 GMT -5
I'm going through the same dilemma shynjdude. There are no easy answers, my wife has very low self confidence and minimal self esteem. I worry how she will manage alone, it will be upsetting for her, a change to the status quo always is. She may well resent me for breaking up what she perceives as a happy family.
But I'm coming to realise that it is all based on lies. She has the potential to do fine for herself, she's smart, attractive and can easily find someone else, someone compatible. She doesn't realise this of course, or may be she does. I don't know.
Ultimately though, the truth will out. It usually does.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jun 18, 2018 12:55:34 GMT -5
I don’t know @shynjdude because I still care too. It would be much easier to hate my H but I don’t. And I am definitely worried he will not take care of himself once he’s alone. (Isolate himself and become an depressed, alcoholic workaholic mainly.) I get that you hate for your future happiness to only happen if you cause her pain. But the alternative is for you to care more about her than you do about yourself, as her future “happiness” (which is debatable) should you stay together, would only happen if you continue to cause yourself pain. I know that you’d rather be hurt than hurt someone else. I’ve seen it. But how has that worked out for you thus far? I’d be really interested to hear from others who have left (or are in the process of leaving) as to how they got past this. Did they get to a point where they truly did stop caring? Or did they have to consciously choose, as bballgirl stated, to put themselves first regardless? And for those who have stayed for decades, is that a large reason why you’ve stayed? Because you don’t want to cause pain to your spouse? If so, do you regret your decision?
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 18, 2018 19:02:13 GMT -5
"I know that divorce will hurt her a great deal. Her sense of security that comes from her reliable, income producing and even tempered husband is very important to her. We were saving money for retirement. All that is going to disappear.
She will be unmoored, depressed, who knows - maybe suicidal. As much as I feel that she resents me, she is utterly dependent on me, emotionally as well as monetarily. When her mind goes in cycles and she's stuck, she knows she can talk things out with me and I can get her out of the cycle so she can move on. "
I remember being concerned about what would happen to my h if I divorced. I was the one who connected with other people, taking him along with me. I was concerned that if we divorced, he'd have a lonely old age and also would be suffering the Alzheimers that runs in his family. When I finally decided to divorce, he was very willing. In fact, I learned that he thought that two years previously, at age 60, he had fathered a child in Asia (We lived in the US) . Still, as we went through the amicable divorce process, my friends had to keep reminding me to focus on my needs, not my h's. I was worried that his plan to retire and move to another country would leave him lonely and broke. I also regarded his plans to move abroad as being a sign he was in the early stages of dementia.
Six years after I filed, we are both happy with our new partners. My ex has withstood kidney cancer, has had steady, lucrative, impressive employment in Asia, and has a 25 or so years younger partner who seems to be devoted to him. He has no signs of dementia. He has new friends and hobbies.
And I am just as happy with my life. My partner and I even plan to move to Mexico later this year after my partner retires. It ends up that there are some major financial and other benefits to retiring outside of the U.S. My ex wasn't nuts. He was savvy.
Why I'm posting this is that I realize now it was my own hubris that assumed my refuser would be foundering without me. Think about it: If your wife was wise enough to live a life before you, and if she was appealing enough to hook you, she likely is capable of handling life well without you. Your staying with her may reflect your fears of living without her, not the reality of how she could cope as a single.
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Post by baza on Jun 18, 2018 19:06:00 GMT -5
Exactly where is it written in stone that you have to stop caring about your (former) spouse post divorce ? Sister northstarmom mentions above methods of providing support of a practical nature in that scenario....and also makes the very valid point that based on life spans, your missus is going to have to learn how to get along without you anyway. Maybe this is another of those "word definitions". Caring FOR your ex spouse is one thing. Caring ABOUT your ex spouse is another thing entirely. Should you care FOR your spouse post divorce ? (In my mind the answer to that is "no" as her care is her responsibility) Should you care ABOUT your spouse post divorce ? (In my mind the answer is "how could you not ?") You can - if you choose - be generous in the divorce to make her transition into single life "easier" (incidently, don't expect any thanks if you do this). But to take a position - post divorce - of still caring for her would not be smart. It's not your job to be her carer. It is YOUR job to take care of YOU.
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Post by workingonit on Jun 18, 2018 20:27:41 GMT -5
I agree with the wisdom written here from our voices of those that have left. But as someone who is still in I really understand. Caring for and about my h is part of my identity as an adult. I truly and honestly care about him. I enjoy caring about and for him- it is part of me that craves the closeness of a relationship with the giving and the taking. And in little things and in some big things he also enjoys and does take care of me. This is the part of being a couple that works for both of us. When my h was diagnosed with cancer this year one of my first thoughts was to be glad I was still married to him so I could be there with him through it. That is just part of who I am- my soul LIKES both the giving and the receiving.
The thing is, I think you @shynjdude are coming to terms with what divorce really looks like. You are asking about your joint business, about the ways you help take care of her, etc. It can be easy on this site to focus on the lack of sex and the lack of intimacy. And, of course, that lack is debilitating. But it is realistic to notice and think about and even mourn all the ways that truly separating from your w will change parts of your identity and self expression in the world. I believe this is just one of those aspects that make divorce tragic. Of course, it will also mean a new beginning for both you and your w. It will likely be an important transition for her to learn how to get support.
Bottom line from every person I know who has been divorced: is divorce easy? No! Does it change you? Yes!
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 18, 2018 20:51:41 GMT -5
I'll take a different approach here. A tough love approach, ( after my own experiences I am skeptical if your wife is truly all in 'need' of you ,or it's just more manipulation).
Marriage and divorce is a time for adulting. Your previous examples of your wife's dominance of conversations, decisions, and business prove that she is capable of taking control.
Even her possible manipulation of appearing helpless without you is more manipulation to take advantage of your good nature, and your white night philosophies. While inside she develops more and more disdain for your lack of standing up against her. It's a deceitful, mind boggling game of double standards.
One thing you can do that will benefit both of you, is to say "no" to some of her more simple ways, demands,habits,( whatever you wish to call it)and see if any changes happen in her behavior. You will benefit by changing, by setting a boundary and saying "no". Will she easily accept this? (I doubt it) but it will give you more confirmation that you are making the right decision for the both of you.
You will be giving her the control she wants, (by saying no and making her responsible) it's no longer your concern, you will be free to solve, solvable problems.
Others will see that as not caring. However look back into your childhood, and remember the adult that let you say no to things, to have a voice, to allow you to grow up. That too was someone who cared enough to GIVE you a voice, and cared enough to make sure you where allowed to say no for yourself.
If you don't quiet, you can't loose.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 21:25:27 GMT -5
Thanks, greatcoastal, but my wife is not like your ex. northstarmom makes some excellent points about how our spouses can probably handle much more on their own than they appear. (I do feel sorry for my kids, because she is going to demand from them what she expects from me, and they'll be forced to say no, which will upset her.) And workingonit nails it in that I'm trying to anticipate and prepare for all the emotions and changes that are coming. I'm trying to plan for everything that will happen when I throw a hand grenade into the marriage, and there is no way to predict what will actually happen until it does, and then I have to hold on to the roller coaster for dear life. (Yeah, mixing analogies, so sue me.) Thanks for all the advice, and baza is wise as usual. Dammit.
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 18, 2018 21:34:21 GMT -5
This part of my story may interest those not divorcing for fears of what will happen to their partner whom they consider frail.
As I said before, when I finally decided to divorce, my husband easily agreed to the divorce and revealed that he was involved in a relationship with a woman in Asia, and he thought he had fathered her 2-year old. It was therefore obvious to me that he, too, had wanted out of our marriage so I asked him why he hadn't asked me for a divorce.
He said because he feared it would make me suicidal! The man whom I was concerned would have difficulty thriving without me had wanted out but had feared that I wouldn't survive without him. That's even though for a couple of years I had been saying to him that we had become so different that if I had to do it over, I wouldn't marry him. I also had been the one whose idea it was for him to spend a year in Asia working without me. I'd suggested that not only because he loved to travel but also because I wanted to see if I'd miss him. (I didnt miss him. In fact, i was sad when he returned).
So, it's very possible that your spouse whom you believe is frail, dependent on you and in love with you, might be relieved even happy if you divorced them. It's also possible that you are unconsciously so controlling that your spouse is not comfortable being independent and assertive with you. After all, you must get something good out of having your spouse be so dependent on you. If it was unbearable for you, you'd be long gone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 21:42:04 GMT -5
northstarmom, my wife isn't frail and isn't in love with me, that's for sure. But she has a macho posturing that is meant to cover for her insecurities, and even though she almost never admits them to me, she really needs me to get over them. You are right in one thing though - chances are probably much better than I realize that she can handle herself okay by herself. This thread is helping me look at that side of things.
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