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Post by fearless on May 29, 2018 13:24:44 GMT -5
Hi all, I'm a new member to this forum. I would love some perspective on whether to divorce or give my marriage another try. My husband of 31 years is a good provider, is kind and generous to me, and we have fun together. We love each other, despite some values and world-view differences, but our marriage has been sexless (meaning sex 2-4 times/year) for at least 17 years. I raised it a number of times through the years, which just caused him to shut down and emotionally withdraw. He has never complained about our lack of sex, and up until recently, took the view that sex was not necessary to a good marriage or to being "in love." I struggled with feeling terribly rejected and undesirable for years, but thought I'd come to peace with compartmentalizing and denying my sexuality. Two years ago a brief but very passionate affair with an old lover opened my eyes. I realized how much extreme pain I was still in over feeling rejected and just how much I'd been denying my sexuality, so I gave him an ultimatum. He finally agreed to counseling and after two years, our communication is better but not our sex life. He believes his lack of interest is due to equal parts of: "low-normal" drive, his sensitivity/low self-esteem in combination with feeling criticized by me; and my growing indifference to his touching me in affectionate ways (true- I've not been willing to have a "cafeteria-style" relationship where he picks physical affection but declines sex). Ironically, his primary love language is physical touch but sex is not a necessary part of that. My main problem, I guess, is not wanting to end such a long-term marriage if this might still be fixable. After I said I was moving out (we've been separated for six months), he said he was wrong, he now realizes the connecting value of sex, and wants to make amends. I have my suspicions, of course, that he has simply picked up on what to say out of desperation to save our marriage, and is, at heart, asexual or mostly so. Does sex offered out of love but not really out of desire ever work? Michelle Weiner Davis says to accept sex from a LD partner as a gift of love. But I bristle at that--I truly want and deserve passion. And especially, does this ever work for women? Thanks for your help with sorting through this!
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Post by bballgirl on May 29, 2018 16:11:15 GMT -5
I'm sorry you are here and I hope you can find some comfort and support here. To answer your question- and it could be different for some but I think for most - sex without desire doesn't work, it's not sustainable.
I think it's a positive thing that you have some zip code therapy to figure things out for yourself. I also think if he's asexual then he will never be capable of fulfilling your needs.
I also think that sometimes we love someone regardless of them meeting all of our needs. I was in a SM for 23 years, divorced my H, was single and dating for a year and then started missing him. So we got back together but we aren't married and I have a lover. This works for me. It's not typical but I'm happy.
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Post by jim44444 on May 29, 2018 19:03:19 GMT -5
A person with a low sex drive cannot just wish themselves to be a high libido person. They can respond to sexual cues but it will be a deliberate choice. They will not often get aroused spontaneously. Your H may be able to satisfy your sexual needs and enjoy doing so but is highly unlikely that he will ever be a raging stallion. He will probably rarely if ever initiate but may respond to your overtures. Will that be enough for you? Most people require a two way street with their lover. What happens when he decides he is to old for sex?
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Post by JMX on May 29, 2018 21:40:17 GMT -5
fearless - some similarities here. I feel your pain - essentially, sexless about 13 years of a marriage of 15 (two years amazing!!) and dating and fucking all the time for about two years prior to marriage. “Does sex offered out of love but not really out of desire ever work?” My answer is “no”. I have been doing it awhile - and more consciously since finding this group - it doesn’t matter. If nothing else - the debate of “chicken or the egg” looms large. And in the end, it doesn’t even matter. Not one iota of what got us here matters. What does matter? How much can you take to attain status quo? What does status quo do for YOU? What would going against the grain do for you? Can you be alone? Short term? Long term? Can you be okay with never having a partner again? These are questions I ask myself. These are healthy questions!!! Can you be alone and survive? That encompasses money and knowing yourself personally. Would the pain of what you might miss NOT divorcing, trump the pain of divorcing and the possibility of being alone forever? That is the question.
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Post by baza on May 29, 2018 21:54:47 GMT -5
You've been separated for 6 months Sister fearless ? Suggestion. Proceed to divorce. If - after that - he is still in your orbit (by virtue of co-parenting or some other mutual matter) and has got his shit together, you might 'consider' including him in your dating pool, or you might not. Either way, a big full stop needs to be put on the existing relationship. After that, the call on whether you see him again is entirely yours. What he might prefer is not especially relevant. Your story does NOT read like you are terribly impressed by the idea of extending "last chance #17"
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Post by snowman12345 on May 30, 2018 5:28:40 GMT -5
Hi all, I'm a new member to this forum. I would love some perspective on whether to divorce or give my marriage another try. My husband of 31 years is a good provider, is kind and generous to me, and we have fun together. We love each other, despite some values and world-view differences, but our marriage has been sexless (meaning sex 2-4 times/year) for at least 17 years. I raised it a number of times through the years, which just caused him to shut down and emotionally withdraw. He has never complained about our lack of sex, and up until recently, took the view that sex was not necessary to a good marriage or to being "in love." I struggled with feeling terribly rejected and undesirable for years, but thought I'd come to peace with compartmentalizing and denying my sexuality. Two years ago a brief but very passionate affair with an old lover opened my eyes. I realized how much extreme pain I was still in over feeling rejected and just how much I'd been denying my sexuality, so I gave him an ultimatum. He finally agreed to counseling and after two years, our communication is better but not our sex life. He believes his lack of interest is due to equal parts of: "low-normal" drive, his sensitivity/low self-esteem in combination with feeling criticized by me; and my growing indifference to his touching me in affectionate ways (true- I've not been willing to have a "cafeteria-style" relationship where he picks physical affection but declines sex). Ironically, his primary love language is physical touch but sex is not a necessary part of that. My main problem, I guess, is not wanting to end such a long-term marriage if this might still be fixable. After I said I was moving out (we've been separated for six months), he said he was wrong, he now realizes the connecting value of sex, and wants to make amends. I have my suspicions, of course, that he has simply picked up on what to say out of desperation to save our marriage, and is, at heart, asexual or mostly so. Does sex offered out of love but not really out of desire ever work? Michelle Weiner Davis says to accept sex from a LD partner as a gift of love. But I bristle at that--I truly want and deserve passion. And especially, does this ever work for women? Thanks for your help with sorting through this! If it was fixable, wouldn't it be "fixed" by now?
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Post by elkclan2 on May 30, 2018 5:38:29 GMT -5
Sometimes those of us in an SM (formerly me!) would torture ourselves with the 'what if' of our partner putting a move on us. It is particularly difficult if they are otherwise affectionate. Sometimes it actually happens and it's so devoid of real passion that it's practically worthless. Michelle Weiner Davis suggests accepting sex as an 'act of love' - I suppose that's ok if it really is an act of love, but too often it's an act of desperation (trying to keep you- but motivated from a real desire to keep you) or an act of fraud (motivated by trying to keep the benefits of marriage, but not necessarily you).
I'm not a big fan of MWD anyway - her advice to the sex starved wife is to avoid putting pressure, to do more for your spouse, etc. I tried that. It just raised his expectations that I would do the emotional and practical heavy lifting in the marriage without any expectation of sex! Trying her way was a pretty miserable 6 to 9 months for me!
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Post by DryCreek on May 30, 2018 13:33:12 GMT -5
fearless, if you're like many of us, you'll find that it's not just the lack of sex that's the problem - it's the missing intimacy and emotional bond that we associate with sex. When you fall in this camp, duty sex doesn't get the job done. Having sex with someone who doesn't really want it makes me feel like a creep. You don't get your real needs met for intimacy and emotional connection, but they "checked the box" for being a good spouse. Can going through the motions work? Absolutely, if it helps to re-light the fire; if you don't try, there's little hope of a fix. But does it help to keep going through the motions when the fire refuses to re-kindle? Probably not.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 14:06:04 GMT -5
DryCreek nailed this one. A little mercy sex might get you through a dry spell of one type or another but when it's your permanent condition you're just trying to light a fire in the rain. I've also found that if you adjust your needs to theirs (no compromise) then the bar just keeps getting reset. Monthly turns to quarterly turns to nothing. Being the primary initiator or only initiator also wears on your self-esteem over time even if they are checking the good spouse box.
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Post by fearless on Jun 1, 2018 15:18:25 GMT -5
First, my disclaimer: “fearless” is who I’m becoming, not who I am. (In case you were thinking, “Damn, she seems really wimpy to be calling herself fearless.” Lol. Thank you so much for all of the supportive and insightful responses. You all make great points and I can definitely see where you’re coming from, and why "fixing" this seems pretty far-fetched, after all this time. Of course, there is more to the situation, but I was trying to be succinct. I’m sorry this is so long-winded, but I’m so confused. And if nothing else, it’s a window into how complicated sex can become. The good. He has been working VERY hard in individual therapy for two years, and gained a lot of insight. #1- He hardly ever withdraws anymore, even when the conversation gets emotional #2- When he feels criticized, he knows it’s often his low self-esteem rearing up, so he can usually check with me to see if that’s my intent. In the past, when I asked for things emotionally—like more sex-- he heard this as “You suck!” #3- He talks more openly about sex now, and insists that he does have desire for me, that he is not asexual, and that he wants a complete marriage. That in the past, feeling criticized squashed his interest in sex. All good, it just took f**** forever to get here. The bad. I have a new kind of pain. I got through the long years of SM by telling myself it wasn’t about me and that his low drive wasn’t his fault. Now he says that’s only part of it. Our lack of sex WAS about me, because he perceived criticism everywhere. Yup, this is fixable, through therapy and better communication, and through me being more aware of how he hears things. But shit. This also means it WAS personal, and it WAS about me. He wanted sex, at least more than it was happening, but didn’t want it with ME, because he was pissed (that’s my take on it, not his). But he never brought up sex or his unhappiness and he faked it well--I actually thought he was quite pleased with our marriage. Years of pain could have been avoided if he had spoken up about his unhappiness—something he never did -- and made protecting our marriage a priority. So in a way, I’ve got him in a no-win situation. Damned if he is (asexual) and damned if he isn’t (cuz then, imo, he failed to protect our marriage and maybe, semi-deliberately left me miserable). Either way, he ignored my unhappiness. He wants to get our sex life back on track, but my head is spinning. I’m too anxious about what to believe to give him any encouragement. And I don’t know if I can get past the last twenty years.
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 1, 2018 19:02:43 GMT -5
“Now he says that’s only part of it. Our lack of sex WAS about me, because he perceived criticism everywhere. Yup, this is fixable, through therapy and better communication, and through me being more aware of how he hears things. But shit. This also means it WAS personal, and it WAS about me. He wanted sex, at least more than it was happening, but didn’t want it with ME, because he was pissed (that’s my take on it, not his). “
I don’t buy what he’s saying. If he really wanted sex with you, he would have talked to you about the communication problem. He is just making excuses.
BTW is there evidence he has been having affairs? People who like sex but blame their sexually willing partner for their sm are likely having sex with someone else. They also are likely telling their sex partner that their spouse is to blame for their affair.
He is lying to you. People who like sex and are attracted to their partner don’t go 20 years without sex even though their partner is willing. He is either asexual or he likes sex bug isn’t sexually attracted to you. He may be a pedo, gay, a porn addict, fetishist, etc. bottom line is you can’t change him. If you want a mutually enjoyable sex life, it will only happen with another man.
Only you know if it is worth it to remain married to a man who is basically a good friend and roommate.
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Post by baza on Jun 1, 2018 19:30:11 GMT -5
If you were to call a halt to this situation Sister fearless , and continue the divorce process through, you would respectfully be giving him the necessary space for him to concentrate on sorting his own shit out without the additional issue of being in a foundering relationship. He could go full throttle at sorting out his assorted issues without distraction. IF he was being honest in his claim of wanting to sort his shit out, being by himself would be a great environment for a bit of genuine self examination and action. IF he then presented himself to you, a year after the divorce, as a functional individual with a whole heap of his shit sorted out, you might consider having an appropriate relationship with him (pre-suppossing that you have not moved on by then - which you probably would have done) It is HIS job to attempt to sort his shit out. It is NOT your job to hit your life's pause button whilst he makes the attempt.
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Post by snowman12345 on Jun 1, 2018 19:34:53 GMT -5
First, my disclaimer: “fearless” is who I’m becoming, not who I am. (In case you were thinking, “Damn, she seems really wimpy to be calling herself fearless.” Lol. Thank you so much for all of the supportive and insightful responses. You all make great points and I can definitely see where you’re coming from, and why "fixing" this seems pretty far-fetched, after all this time. Of course, there is more to the situation, but I was trying to be succinct. I’m sorry this is so long-winded, but I’m so confused. And if nothing else, it’s a window into how complicated sex can become. The good. He has been working VERY hard in individual therapy for two years, and gained a lot of insight. #1- He hardly ever withdraws anymore, even when the conversation gets emotional #2- When he feels criticized, he knows it’s often his low self-esteem rearing up, so he can usually check with me to see if that’s my intent. In the past, when I asked for things emotionally—like more sex-- he heard this as “You suck!” #3- He talks more openly about sex now, and insists that he does have desire for me, that he is not asexual, and that he wants a complete marriage. That in the past, feeling criticized squashed his interest in sex. All good, it just took f**** forever to get here. The bad. I have a new kind of pain. I got through the long years of SM by telling myself it wasn’t about me and that his low drive wasn’t his fault. Now he says that’s only part of it. Our lack of sex WAS about me, because he perceived criticism everywhere. Yup, this is fixable, through therapy and better communication, and through me being more aware of how he hears things. But shit. This also means it WAS personal, and it WAS about me. He wanted sex, at least more than it was happening, but didn’t want it with ME, because he was pissed (that’s my take on it, not his). But he never brought up sex or his unhappiness and he faked it well--I actually thought he was quite pleased with our marriage. Years of pain could have been avoided if he had spoken up about his unhappiness—something he never did -- and made protecting our marriage a priority. So in a way, I’ve got him in a no-win situation. Damned if he is (asexual) and damned if he isn’t (cuz then, imo, he failed to protect our marriage and maybe, semi-deliberately left me miserable). Either way, he ignored my unhappiness. He wants to get our sex life back on track, but my head is spinning. I’m too anxious about what to believe to give him any encouragement. And I don’t know if I can get past the last twenty years. Beware! He is engaging in clear narcissistic behavior; now he is trying to make you believe it was your fault all along - not his. He desires you except when you say you want sex. Hmmm. Take a step back - go on a short vacation by yourself - away from the everyday grind and your h. Clear your head and see things for what they are.
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Post by nyartgal on Jun 1, 2018 20:09:53 GMT -5
Oh man. Been there, divorced that. Beware the person who cannot take responsibility for anything, and somehow always makes it someone else's fault. Or the weather. Or the subway. Or the firmness of the mattress. Basically what he is saying is that he was pissed at you (justifiably or not), but instead if putting on his big boy pants and using his words to tell you how he felt, he decided sabotaging your sex life (and your marriage) was preferable. This is called passive aggression, and it ain't sexy. In any case, marriage doesn't guarantee ROI. Doesn't matter what you've sunk into it, years, love, mortgage payments, kids. Holding on longer doesn't give you a better shot of making it all worth it, unless you're marriage is ALREADY worth it. Which doesn't sound to be the case here. My take: once a sexual relationship is dead, it's dead. You can try pity sex, group sex, open relationships, sex appointments, whatever---once it is truly dead, nothing can bring it back. You can love and miss someone enough to move back in together like bballgirl and it STILL doesn't resuscitate the sex. And when you know that your partner doesn't actually desire you (or worse, he has actually been repulsed by you/his anger at you), it is not ever going to be what you want. As I said, been there, divorced that---and so glad I did.
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 1, 2018 22:09:34 GMT -5
fearless, I'm calling bullshit on his blame-shifting. He needs to be a man and own his shit instead of tearing you down to justify his bad behavior. "You wanted more sex and I felt criticized, so clearly the rational choice was to passive-aggressively destroy our relationship and ignore your pleas to fix things. I was spineless for years, but it's your fault that I didn't speak up." That is so laughably weak. Don't give it an ounce of credibility. No sexual male runs away from "I want more in the bedroom". Go become Fearless!
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