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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 13:38:54 GMT -5
This made things worse because she started mocking me at times that I wasn't a man and if I wasn't really interested, I should not have wasted her time. Dude, Your wife hates you. She's a witch. I'm not the kind to say these things lightly, but mocking over things like this is evil. It's hatred. It's sick. There's no other way to couch it. My STBX wife is also a "christian". She mocks me for church service, Bible study, community service, and helping neighbors. Frankly, I don't believe she's a Christian at all. But it's not my place to speculate on such things. I kept all this secret for years until a couple years ago I began telling friends and even my pastor. I was afraid of what folks would say, but my fear was all wrong. We counseled with the pastor and individually, until it became clear that my wife was totally and irretrievably unaccountable. Your wife's nasty manipulative nature is damaging more than just you. Trust me, it's affecting your kids too. I filed back in August. My teenaged kids will be better off once this is finished. If you're a committed Christian, please make use of your church. It'll either help your marriage or end it quickly. In my case, it hastened it's demise. Evil like what you're living with cannot stand the light. Shine the light on it quickly. You don't have to live like this.
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Post by h on Dec 26, 2017 13:48:35 GMT -5
The fact that she belittles you, makes fun of your ED issues that she has caused, and has willfully broken her marriage vows to you, shows that she had no respect for you at all. Coming at this from a Christian perspective, wives are supposed to show respect for their husbands. By this, I don't mean that they should be subservient, but should avoid being like your wife is clearly acting towards you. Also, sex in marriage is a right that can't be denied by either spouse in a Christian marriage according to 1 Corinthians 7. Have you talked to your pastor or someone else at your church? If you are serious about your Christian faith, then involving the church is the next step. Then if you eventually decide you do have to divorce, the reason will be known and it is a biblically legitimate one. Yes - but good idea on getting the clergy involved, else she will stop reading at: "Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”" I think Paul was acknowledging that he was an asexual but also that he wasn't the norm. He was being realistic and admitting that not everyone was like him and marriage was the solution for everyone else.
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Post by csl on Dec 26, 2017 15:23:27 GMT -5
emptynside , you are not being selfish to want sex inside your marriage. I'd say your expectations are spot on and it is your wife who is being selfish and untrue to the vows. Of course we each have our own flaws, but if you are coming to the table willing to admit and work on yours, then you'll need her to be doing the same. I think it's pretty hard (if not impossible) to make progress with someone who refuses to be accountable for their mistakes. I'm very sorry you're in this situation. I don't have solutions, but I would point you to a fellow Christian member, csl , who has a wonderful, theology-laden blog called the Curmudgeonly Librarian. I hope you can find some answers there and maybe even turn your situation around. If your wife is a committed Christian, I would think some of this will speak to her. If you have God first in your marriage or the desire to put Him there, I see lots of hope for you. Best wishes! I'll second that. csl is the go-to guy on scripture as it relates to this situation. He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has been named, so here I am. All humility aside, I agree with elle and h. I did create a page in which I try to order my scattershot posts into a logical order, and I would recommend that you begin there. csl's Sexless Marriage Page
While not all-encompassing, I think it moves through in a logical order. I hope that what I've written will be helpful to you. I see by my stats that you are doing some exploring already.
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Post by darktippedrose on Dec 26, 2017 15:35:00 GMT -5
Hugs. so sorry you are going through this. I"m not a christian, but I know what its like for sexlessness to be a taboo subject in a religious community. Or for a spouse to use religion to be completely neglectful.
I have no clear cut answers. hugs.
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Post by h on Dec 26, 2017 17:59:48 GMT -5
Hugs. so sorry you are going through this. I"m not a christian, but I know what its like for sexlessness to be a taboo subject in a religious community. Or for a spouse to use religion to be completely neglectful. I have no clear cut answers. hugs. It is clearly not an issue confined to one (or any) religion. emptynside will find that this issue cuts across all cultures.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 19:17:58 GMT -5
I'll second that. csl is the go-to guy on scripture as it relates to this situation. He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has been named, so here I am. All humility aside, I agree with elle and h. I did create a page in which I try to order my scattershot posts into a logical order, and I would recommend that you begin there. csl's Sexless Marriage Page
While not all-encompassing, I think it moves through in a logical order. I hope that what I've written will be helpful to you. I see by my stats that you are doing some exploring already. Been there and done that. csl 's page is great. csl is a fine man as well. Thank you, csl.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 19:24:28 GMT -5
emptynside, You need to embrace the @smartkat principle: If she loves you, she'll fuck you". It's a universal truth. Wrestle with it some. If you can prove it wrong, you're a better man than I. But there's another one. If she mocks you she hates you. Mocking is contempt. Contempt is hatred. We don't mock the ones we love. Or like. Or don't care for.
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Post by h on Dec 26, 2017 19:28:27 GMT -5
emptynside , You need to embrace the @smartkat principle: If she loves you, she'll fuck you". It's a universal truth. Wrestle with it some. If you can prove it wrong, you're a better man than I. But there's another one. If she mocks you she hates you. Mocking is contempt. Contempt is hatred. We don't mock the ones we love. Or like. Or don't care for. Absolutely true. The mocking is inexcusable.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 20:04:42 GMT -5
I am the minister, working with a licenced therapist. If I leave, I have to sever ties with church, find a new job, and this also included having to make a huge move, because I will not be allowed to stay where I am living at the moment. I feel trapped. I don't know anything about your denomination, but can't you find another clergyman - in a different city, or higher up in the hierarchy - to discuss this with? Not to be too blunt, but your wife seems to have turned you into a doormat. The mocking is so outrageous that it should prompt you to immediately move to another bedroom until she truly apologizes. Sexlessness is infinitely preferable to being treated worse than a dog. You need to realize - truly realize - that she is wrong and you are right in this topic. When your attitude changes, and you know you have the moral high ground, it is possible that the relationship will change as well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 20:07:53 GMT -5
Gentlemen,
If you're Christianity or Christian community is "hush hush, taboo" about sex, particularly about sex in a marriage ....... Ok, let's take a step back for a minute. If your Christian Community/Fellowship is "hush hush, taboo" about anything, please find another.
That's never been the intent or the proper practice. There are very few "Decent Christians". I know a lot of Christian men in lots of intimate settings. While they don't put their sin and failure on parade, they do confess them to ministers and friends with whom they're comfortable. None of them would shame you for any of this. The ones I know would encourage you by demonstrating you're "Better" (By the world's standard) than most of them.
My circumstances was probably worse than yours. I put up with it silently (except for here and EP before). I rationalized that my kids needed me at the house.
In 2016 I changed. I first told my business partner/friend of 27 years. He told me he and his wife already knew it. It was obvious. My wife was always contemptuous towards me. Then I told my best man friend of 30 years. Same response. In fact, he, being the sensitive man he is already knew my wife hated him and his wife. Then another friend of 40 years.
Then I discussed it with my Pastor. He knew it too. And he knew she wasn't fond of him either. But being a pastor, he asked if he could talk to her. The next couple months were almost comical. He would argue with her biblically, socially, and scientifically that sex was an integral part of marriage. She would have none of it. She even spent a week looking for counselors that advocate sexless marriage.
That, and she told him I was out of my mind. Delusional. Lost in my own world. (She's since -- with the help of a friend that supposedly knows me -- diagnosed me with high functioning Asperger's syndrome.).
She told him (the Pastor) that she's the only one that's honest with me on these things.
Not him, I was the president of the congregation, he was intimidated by me. Not my business partner, he needed me producing, albeit delusionally. Not my brother, he doesn't care.
In the end, my Faith Community -- Christian Brothers and Sisters within my Fellowship and from others -- have been my biggest support. They're not "Yes Men", and they call me to accountability frequently (Something I'm learning). But they're always easy to talk to, and if I have the courage to listen, their collective counsel is golden.
This has to be brought into the light. Once I put it in the light, my wife went nuts and made my mind for me. My decision was crystal clear. I had no choice. You'll never get clarity allowing your hateful, neglectful, dead spouse to hide in his/her privacy. Get it out. Make him/her explain to the general public that they don't like sex. That they're asexual and proud of it. That they love sex, but not with you. Let them take that to their friends. You'll get your clarity. There's no defense for this crap
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 20:39:45 GMT -5
I am the minister, working with a licenced therapist. If I leave, I have to sever ties with church, find a new job, and this also included having to make a huge move, because I will not be allowed to stay where I am living at the moment. I feel trapped. I don't know anything about your denomination, but can't you find another clergyman - in a different city, or higher up in the hierarchy - to discuss this with? Not to be too blunt, but your wife seems to have turned you into a doormat. The mocking is so outrageous that it should prompt you to immediately move to another bedroom until she truly apologizes. Sexlessness is infinitely preferable to being treated worse than a dog. You need to realize - truly realize - that she is wrong and you are right in this topic. When your attitude changes, and you know you have the moral high ground, it is possible that the relationship will change as well. The church has ways of handling this. Thank to her lovingly about it. If that doesn't work, take it to a few trusted men/women/elders, etc with her. If that doesn't work, take it to the leadership. If that doesn't work, treat her like an outsider. Leave room for reconciliation, but let her go. Something has to upset this apple cart.
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Post by solodriver on Dec 26, 2017 21:36:14 GMT -5
As we were visiting family and friends yesterday on Christmas, I had so many thoughts running through my mind, I wanted to share them with you.
As we approach our 30th anniversary, through the years, I did my best to meet all of my wife's needs emotionally, spiritually and physically in a non-sexual way but it didn't change her rejections when I wanted to be intimate with her. I hinted and prodded...still rejected. In about the 12th year of our sexless marriage, I started searching the internet and found the term "sexless marriage". I learned about a website called Experience Project (the forerunner to this group) and the subsection called "I Live in A Sexless Marriage". I was shocked to learn of so many married men AND women who were suffering and feeling the very SAME things I was. I was in tears reading story after story because I could identify with so much of it. All I wanted was a wife that desired me and wanted to have sex with me and be intimate. Still the rejections continued.
My wife has kept me starved and craving for sexual intimacy. She ignores my pleas and neglects my need for her love. I feel that physical intimacy and the sexual relationship is sharing the deep sense of love, two lives, blending, uniting and bonding in the most wonderful way together. It is so very much more than for reproduction. It is not for the same reasons that animals do it. There is such a wonderful, emotional sharing between two souls who make love together. I think there is a experience of love in the physical intimacy that transcends the physical pleasure that is shared. And my wife's rejection has crushed my soul. No amount of explanation for the past 18 years seems to get through to her. Most people want to love and be blessed by being loved. Nothing can compare to the love between a man and woman who love each other and enjoy expressing love as well as receiving love from one another. Unfortunately for me and many other men AND women, my spouse loves me as SHE defines love and ignores my pleas and explanations. She remains clueless to this day and I continue in my daily struggle with resentment and bitterness.
The desire to unite my heart and soul with my wife's is the height of the love expression. The rejection of that desire cuts deep into my soul. A wife OR husband who does not understand this, does not understand the damage she or he is inflicting on their husband or wife and on their marriage. She or He is being cruel to the person they are supposed to be loving to. My wife's No are for many reasons: "Not tonight, maybe tomorrow" "I'm too tired" "I have too many things on my mind" etc. etc. etc. I don't want to ask again and again and risk rejection, but I don't want to accept abstinence either. I can't stand to hear those words "Not tonight, maybe in the morning". She should just say No!
Bitterness is unresolved hurt and anger. And a clueless rejecting husband or wife does not understand that they alone must resolve the problem of their sexless marriage. Because they are so clueless, the rejected husband or wife must bear the burden of coping with the on-going rejection and denial. And "No" always has power over "Yes" Only my wife can solve this dilemma, but she doesn't. I have withdrawn from my wife emotionally to protect myself. Up to that point I allowed her to hurt me over and over and over again. Now I must try to be decent, civil and loving, NOT FOR HER SAKE, but for mine. I do not want to be an asshole. She denies me love and refuses to nurture our relationship beyond what is important to her. I am stuck with a wife of "No". I am not the person I want to be. I cannot be free to express my feelings.
I hate myself for not being stronger to overcome my anger and bitterness, but I so desperately want to be loved by a woman who wants to love me and be loved in return. I mentioned to my wife yesterday that it has been 18 years since we have been intimate and she acted genuinely surprised? "No that's not true" she said. I asked when did she think the last time we were intimate was. After a few minutes there was no response and she started a conversation about something else. I took that as a sign of her uncaring about my thoughts and feelings. She is married. I am her husband. That's as far as she thinks about our relationship. Before her recent problems with a leg injury and the surgery she had for it last week, for me to ask for permission to be intimate would annoy her and stress her. She would know what I wanted and had been waiting for years for, or maybe she doesn't? I am cursed with a clueless wife of "No".
I could easily walk away from this relationship with a blink of the eye. But at the moment, the financial cost and almost impossible recovery from it would only make my life worse, not better. I am constantly fighting thoughts of anger, bitterness and resentment. We live in the same house, but I've made her my roommate as much as possible. I try to be decent and dutiful as a husband but I keep my distance. It's the curse I have to live with for now.
Admittedly, I do love her, but not enough to override my anger for all the misery she's subjected me to. I feel guilty because I don't want to hate my wife. But I hate the feeling of being rejected. I hate being trapped in a sexless marriage with a clueless wife. She is clueless about the damage she is causing to me and our marriage. I hinted, I suggested, I asked, I begged and I pleaded but the answer was the same; "No". She always had excuses, but the bottom line was "No". The promise of "tonight" or "tomorrow morning" never happened.
This is not love. It is the only path offered by a wife of "No".
There are only 2 courses of action to resolve this:
1. SHE has to initiate a love cycle of 'Yes" and bring to an end the rejection cycle. But sadly, after 18 years of rejection, I struggle to even ask my wife again. But if I'm ever brave enough to ask again and the answer is "No". please initiate intimacy as soon as you can. Don't make me ask again. Because I will NEVER EVER ASK AGAIN!, then comes the next action.
2. Divorce because NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE, and the only hope to one day having an opportunity to bond with love and intimacy to another woman who wants and desires my love and who feels the very same way about me.
I hope 2018 will bring us all love, and intimacy in the most wonderful ways that we desire and deserve. I truly care about each of you on here. We share the pain together, but WE ARE NOT ALONE AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE TOGETHER!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 22:12:47 GMT -5
I mentioned to my wife yesterday that it has been 18 years since we have been intimate and she acted genuinely surprised? "No that's not true" she said. I asked when did she think the last time we were intimate was. After a few minutes there was no response and she started a conversation about something else. I took that as a sign of her uncaring about my thoughts and feelings. I don't want to minimize your pain, but in so many of these situations, communication is a major problem. Why did you let her drop the subject? She is clearly uncomfortable talking about it, but you had her in a non-confrontational situation where you could have forced her to acknowledge the issue. You took it as a sign, but from her perspective - admittedly, a self-serving one - the issue isn't that big, or she wants to pretend it isn't an issue at all. It seems to me this was a perfect chance to press her. To gently but insistently get back on the topic. "How do you think it makes me feel when you don't acknowledge my pain over being rejected?" would have been a very reasonable question. "Do you love me?" would have been another, with the followup of "Then why do you pretend that this isn't a problem for me - and for us?" Most spouses are not assholes. (Some that are described here definitely are. They are a minority.) However, spouses can be VERY self-deceptive, very willfully blind. But then again, there are topics that I know I have been just as guilty of pretending things are OK until someone forces me to see that I am in a fantasy world. We all can be willfully blind on uncomfortable subjects. Either she KNOWS you are in pain, in which case she is an asshole, or she is DENYING to herself that you are in pain, in which case she is human - but can be educated. If she never said "Tough luck, no sex for you ever again" then you can give her the benefit of the doubt that she simply does not want to face facts. And you can lovingly but forcefully make sure that she understands and acknowledges your pain. She needs to repeat to you that she understands how much this hurts you. Once that happens, either she changes or she doesn't - but then you have your answer.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 26, 2017 22:16:19 GMT -5
solodriver, your story could be mine with just a few edits. I empathize. I suspect that many of our indifferent spouses are truly clueless and emotionally disconnected from us - not much else (besides malice) could explain why they ignore our pleas. And by clueless I mean oblivious to the concept of emotional bonding and intensity that you describe - "they don't know what they don't know". They don't need it or value it, so they don't know it even exists, let alone miss it; meanwhile we starve without it.
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Post by sojourner on Dec 26, 2017 22:18:26 GMT -5
"Then I started having ED problems"
Please do not try to diagnose your not having an erection as a response to a frigid unfeeling and callous person as ED!
For heavens sake, following Christ does not mean you have to be everyone's floor mat.
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