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Post by shamwow on Dec 22, 2017 7:37:05 GMT -5
The question in my mind ism "what is the purpose of bringing it up more than you currently do"? When I was married and brought it up probably 3 times a year the purpose was to make her realize just how much damage she was doing and that there would inevitably be consequences if her behavior didn't change. The most dire consequence being the marriage would be damaged beyond repair. You are thinking you might be giving your H a pass. Maybe so. But how many times should one have to tell one's spouse how damaging and hurtful their behavior is before expecting some sort of change? 3 times, 5, 8. And after 5 times do you really think upping the frequency will be the magic bullet that turns things around? Experience here tells us that is extremely unlikely. Any # of stories here (including mine)speak to dropping the D bomb if there's no change. Turns out separation and divorce came a knocking irrespective of the # or frequency of talks. If your goal is to measure the progress he makes in addressing his own demons that's different as it represents your desire to help him toward a state of wellness emotionally. Just don't chase the frequency of bringing it up as another potential "why" he isn't responding to your efforts to turn things around. I agree. I used to have "the talk" with my now ex-wife several times per year to no effect. Then, perhaps 2 years before we divorced I simply stopped. It wasn't because I was happy, contented, or resigned to the situation. It was more like a man in the desert who stops sweating due to the onset of heatstroke. I wise person observes this and takes whatever action they can to prevent this. A fool keeps trudging along ignoring the symptoms. What's funny is that when I told my ex-wife I wanted a divorce she was dumbfounded. She actually stated that she knew our marriage was in trouble but I hadn't given her enough chances. She would have kept marching me through the noon heat of the desert forever had I not collapsed. Thank God I don't have the endurance of a camel!
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Post by M2G on Dec 22, 2017 8:39:32 GMT -5
The question in my mind ism "what is the purpose of bringing it up more than you currently do"? When I was married and brought it up probably 3 times a year the purpose was to make her realize just how much damage she was doing and that there would inevitably be consequences if her behavior didn't change. The most dire consequence being the marriage would be damaged beyond repair. You are thinking you might be giving your H a pass. Maybe so. But how many times should one have to tell one's spouse how damaging and hurtful their behavior is before expecting some sort of change? 3 times, 5, 8. And after 5 times do you really think upping the frequency will be the magic bullet that turns things around? Experience here tells us that is extremely unlikely. Any # of stories here (including mine)speak to dropping the D bomb if there's no change. Turns out separation and divorce came a knocking irrespective of the # or frequency of talks. If your goal is to measure the progress he makes in addressing his own demons that's different as it represents your desire to help him toward a state of wellness emotionally. Just don't chase the frequency of bringing it up as another potential "why" he isn't responding to your efforts to turn things around. I think that's where I am now, in a relationship beyond repair. I got home with a big smile on last night and immediately got it wiped off with a verbal baseball bat. Hard as I work, as careful as I strive to be, I can't seem to go any longer than 10 days to 2 weeks without doing something she finds off-putting and worthy of a fight / chastisement. Not fighting back, seems just to make her more intensively roused than if I were to resort to yelling - and I don't have the stomach for that anymore. No worth it. I just stand there and listen, just like I used to to when I was a little kid taking shit from my abusive step-dad. My W, seems to think everything I do is some wild plot to gaslight her, abuse her, manipulate her, control her or invalidate her - whatever the fuck it is. In fact I am doing everything possible to do just the opposite. Maybe I really am just a horrible person, maybe subconsciously I'm really a huge bag of hate behind a mask, my unconscious mind hatching hateful plots in the background - waiting to pounce and ruin her life. Sex, is so far out of the picture at this point that I no longer think about it. It's just as hopeless as trying to cut down the largest tree in the forest with a stick of chewing gum. Moving forward with my lawyer visit plans next week. W decided to stop working back in '95 so probably I will get crucified in a divorce but, at this point, it seems better that than the eggshell walk I take on a daily basis. Thanks for listening.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 22, 2017 9:26:02 GMT -5
“Hard as I work, as careful as I strive to be, I can't seem to go any longer than 10 days to 2 weeks without doing something she finds off-putting and worthy of a fight / chastisement. Not fighting back, seems just to make her more intensively roused than if I were to resort to yelling - and I don't have the stomach for that anymore. No worth it. I just stand there and listen, just like I used to to when I was a little kid taking shit from my abusive step-dad”
Yelling back is a time waster. You are wise not to engage like that. You can also choose to walk away completely out of the house. You can choose also to stop sharing a bedroom if you still do. You can choose to live as if you are unrelated roommates taking meals and socializing separately.
Individual therapy could help you heal from this abusive wife and your abusive childhood.
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appleaday
Junior Member
Posts: 95
Age Range: 36-40
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Post by appleaday on Dec 22, 2017 9:42:26 GMT -5
I think we have talked about it twice in detail. He said he knew something wasn't right but was hoping it would go away. So now we avoid the issue and it's pure politeness in the relationship. We are very polite roommates now who never have disagreements, just passive aggressive outbursts from time to time. It never seems like the right tine to bring it up, we are always so busy, so behind on day-to-day functioning that I put it off. I don't think there is a point anyway. I'm not going to leave and he's not going to change so it would just stir up animosity for no reason.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 22, 2017 10:42:57 GMT -5
“I'm not going to leave and he's not going to change so it would just stir up animosity for no reason.”
According to your profile, you are in your thirties. According to one of your stories here, you have to ask him to kiss you in date night. Why do you choose to stay with him? Do you really plan to live like this in a polite roommate situation for 50 more years?
I know you’ve said your spouse is kind when you are sick. He helps around the house and is kind to your young relatives. But a good friend or good roommate would do those things. Frankly, I find it creepy that he spends so much time with your relatives who are children yet he isn’t sexually intimate with you. I have known some people who ended up getting convicted of pedophilia. They were really nice people who also were nice and patient with kids. They were the type one would trust with kids.
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Dec 23, 2017 3:01:06 GMT -5
I finally gave up. All it did was result in her getting angry, and of course the fight was all my fault - she has done/does nothing wrong. So for now I am just status quo. It is a terrible place to be but at least the fighting is a lot less.
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Post by h on Dec 23, 2017 7:00:47 GMT -5
I finally gave up. All it did was result in her getting angry, and of course the fight was all my fault - she has done/does nothing wrong. So for now I am just status quo. It is a terrible place to be but at least the fighting is a lot less. I used to avoid the fights too. It's the reason why I let my SM go on for so long. Now, if she wants to argue over it, I wholeheartedly throw myself into the argument. I wish I had argued more and sooner. I think if I had, our marriage would either be better today, or ended years ago. Either way, nothing changes without force. (And to be clear, I mean 'force' in terms of physics where movement of an object in any direction requires force to overcome friction and stationary momentum or momentum in an undesirable direction.)
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 23, 2017 8:06:14 GMT -5
1- How often do you talk with your refuser spouse about your SM? About how unhappy you are, about what you wish your marriage was like, or suggestions for things to try to improve the situation? 2- I’ve been thinking lately that perhaps I’m letting my H “off the hook” by almost never bringing it up. 3- He’s in therapy trying to deal with his issues and hopefully discovering what he may or may not be capable of sexually and intimately in this marriage, and I am just allowing him this time (an undisclosed amount of time that is,) to do this. 4- All while I just play the good little wifey and almost never bring it up so it doesn’t derail whatever progress I am just hoping he’s making. 5- The thing is, I don’t want to upset the peace we have in our household. NO, I’m not happy with our SM -we have talked about it quite a few times - but maybe me not bringing it up regularly is making him think it’s not as big of a deal to me as it is or that it’s not hard for me every single second of the day. 6- So how often do you bring it up? And in what form? Sit down discussions? Snide comments? Screaming fights? I’m not sure any of these would do any good for my situation at the moment beyond just making us both miserable. 1- I talk about it every-single- day! On here. Yet like so many others it became a very "taboo" subject for years. 2- That's what a refuser's greatest success is, remaining FOG (Fear Obligation, Guilt) free, and shifting the blame with zero empathy toward the other spouse. 3- Others have posted on here about their spouse going for individual counselling to "fix" their problem. Every story-including my own- is that their counselling avoided the SM issue entirely. Leaving you sexless,waiting, and continues the mental abuse on you. 4- you are left with nothing. Hoping for progress. Where is your progress in all this? 5- You have been placed in a double bind, again! This counselor should be contacting you after every session and giving you counselling ,telling you about progress for YOU, how this is BENEFITING you ,towards your recovery. That 's not going to happen. Too much of this leaves you with more false hope, and false guilt. Leading you to question your actions and continue to blame yourself. ( like the coke machine analogy) 6- Bringing it up and discussing it did happen for me. it happened with our joint counselling. I received false vague, controlling answers. Yet they became clear sound answers to plan my divorce around. At first these answers made me more miserable, when asked to explain her lack of desire for sex and intimacy, she said, "I don't see the need for it. It's not that important to me. It's not important." After the FOG lifted I could clearly see the manipulative control, the zero empathy in practically everything she does. That it was not due to me. Dear friend, I am very very, reluctant to use the words "told you so". And it pains me to see you figuring this out for yourself. I greatly applaud you for being an endless giver,and being extremely patient. However be aware of passivity. Think timeline, boundaries, and stepping up your plan "B".
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 23, 2017 9:12:04 GMT -5
“I greatly applaud you for being an endless giver,and being extremely patient. “
This kind of statement pisses me off. Unfortunately, there are many people here who think that it’s admirable to allowsomeone to walk over you and stay in a marriage patiently while your sexual needs aren’t met.
Instead of patiently and quietly waiting to see what happens while her husband goes through therapy, I strongly suggest that she invest in individual therapy. This will give her s chance to vent, to become more aware of her own needs, and to make decisions about her life and marriage that are based on her own progress in therapy. She needs to stop sitting on the sidelines waiting and hoping. Instead, she needs to take actions under her control to live the life she wants.
I also suggest that she take into account what many of the refused found when their spouses went into therapy. Their spouses did not work on their sexual problems. I experienced that myself. My ex talked about his students, his parents, anything but our marriage. I know because even though I didn’t ask him, he told me every week what he had disgussed. What changed my life was individual therapy. It helped me hear myself and recognize how miserable I was and how I deserved better.it helped me realize I couldn’t change my husband but could change my life.
Stop waiting patiently. Start listening to yourself and taking actions under your control to have a more fulfilling life.
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Post by choosinghappy on Dec 23, 2017 11:22:09 GMT -5
northstarmom: I also do not find it admirable to allow someone to walk all over you. That is not what is happening in my situation. I am being patient in waiting to see what kind of progress my H can make in his own therapy. He is in an intensive therapy program for PTSD resulting from his childhood sexual abuse, as well as meeting with his individual therapist. He is working through the pain from his past and I have vocalized to him multiple times that my hope for his therapy (in regards to our marriage) is that he will learn what he is and is not capable of sexually and intimately. In this instance yes, I am trying to be as patient as possible. It is and will be a long and emotionally exhausting experience for him and he needs my support. I am willing to give this to him. It is in my control whether or not I choose to do this, and my choice is to be patient and supportive. Regarding other things under my control: In the meantime, I am outsourcing to get my needs met. I have attempted individual therapy with two different therapists (equaling about 6 visits over the past 6 months) and haven’t found the right fit yet. We live on dual coasts and will be going back to the west coast after the holidays so I plan to find a new therapist there. In the meantime, yes I am waiting and hoping, while I also listen to myself and take care of my own needs as best I can.
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Post by M2G on Dec 23, 2017 12:20:33 GMT -5
northstarmom : I also do not find it admirable to allow someone to walk all over you. That is not what is happening in my situation. I am being patient in waiting to see what kind of progress my H can make in his own therapy. He is in an intensive therapy program for PTSD resulting from his childhood sexual abuse, as well as meeting with his individual therapist. He is working through the pain from his past and I have vocalized to him multiple times that my hope for his therapy is that he will learn what he is and is not capable of sexually and intimately. In this instance yes, I am trying to be as patient as possible. It is and will be a long and emotionally exhausting experience for him and he needs my support. I am willing to give this to him. It is in my control whether or not I choose to do this, and my choice is to be patient and supportive. Regarding other things under my control: In the meantime, I am outsourcing to get my needs met. I have attempted individual therapy with two different therapists (equaling about 6 visits over the past 6 months) and haven’t found the right fit yet. We live on dual coasts and will be going back to the west coast after the holidays so I plan to find a new therapist there. In the meantime, yes I am waiting and hoping, while I also listen to myself and take care of my own needs as best I can. choosinghappy - along with PTSD, can come hand in hand with this one: DTD - developmental trauma disorder. I would not go to any counselor, that "didn't believe" in DTD. More here: DTD Thread
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Post by choosinghappy on Dec 23, 2017 12:23:03 GMT -5
Thanks M2G, I’ll check that out!
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Post by mrslowmaintenance on Dec 23, 2017 12:46:14 GMT -5
I guess I would fall on the more frequent side of things. I had a big discussion with him every year, around it anniversary, as well as a less intense but still open conversation around my birthday. So I brought it up every five to ten months.
I think it is understandable that you'd want to give him time to figure out his own mental struggles before putting this one on him again. I don't understand the depth of the damage that he is going through so I don't feel I have room to put an opinion out if you should or shouldn't talk about it now.
Stay strong, hopefully your AP is helping you feel sexy and wanted.
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appleaday
Junior Member
Posts: 95
Age Range: 36-40
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Post by appleaday on Dec 23, 2017 13:40:09 GMT -5
“I'm not going to leave and he's not going to change so it would just stir up animosity for no reason.” According to your profile, you are in your thirties. According to one of your stories here, you have to ask him to kiss you in date night. Why do you choose to stay with him? Do you really plan to live like this in a polite roommate situation for 50 more years? I know you’ve said your spouse is kind when you are sick. He helps around the house and is kind to your young relatives. But a good friend or good roommate would do those things. Frankly, I find it creepy that he spends so much time with your relatives who are children yet he isn’t sexually intimate with you. I have known some people who ended up getting convicted of pedophilia. They were really nice people who also were nice and patient with kids. They were the type one would trust with kids. He is a very good man and we have so much In common. I love him very much and I know that he loves me very much too, he just expresses it differently. I'm not saying it's perfect, clearly it's not. As far as pedophilia there is no way. It's not like that at all. I understand your concern, I have several female relatives who were molested by family members but that is not an issue here. I honestly think my husband is just not interested in sex or physical affection. He had very little experience when I met him at 35. Some people are like that.
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Post by rejected101 on Dec 24, 2017 9:00:46 GMT -5
How often? Hmmmmmmm 🤔 DARVO. As a result......never.
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