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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 22:30:37 GMT -5
I can imagine it must therefore be 10X as hard if the Refused is a women. Society views men as the pursuer and women as the pretty and pursued. When a woman is being rejected it must sting very hard. She would be feeling all sorts of negative soul destroying emotions, why doesn't he want me, am i really that ughly etc etc. Bingo! It is very hard being a refused woman for exactly the reasons you outlined. (I know it’s hard being a refused man too, just for different reasons.) Don’t all men want sex all the time? That’s what we’re conditioned to believe at least.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 22:36:27 GMT -5
...here I am now, five and a bit counter-refusing sexless years later. 5 years? Ouch. But why OrangePeel? Staying for the kids? I don’t think I can handle getting to the 5 year mark of celibacy within marriage. But it sure looks like that’s where this is headed, unless I leave. Such a disappointment.
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Post by choosinghappy on Dec 20, 2017 22:59:50 GMT -5
There is no doubt that when one is in a sexless relationship the Refused spouse's self esteem suffers greatly. As a result this has all sorts of knock on events that negatively affect the life of the refused. I can imagine it must therefore be 10X as hard if the Refused is a women. Society views men as the pursuer and women as the pretty and pursued. When a woman is being rejected it must sting very hard. She would be feeling all sorts of negative soul destroying emotions, why doesn't he want me, am i really that ughly etc etc. Life is too short to allow yourself to be in such a negative relationship. YUP. It is definitely a constant battle to try to overcome those feelings since society’s prevailing thought is that the men are the pursuers (and always horny, of course) and women are the pursued.
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Post by M2G on Dec 21, 2017 0:12:00 GMT -5
Sometimes though, the pursuit is prolonged to the point of running out of breath and energy. Like a cat chasing a toy, if the human with the toy never let's the cat catch it, the cat will lose interest and find something else to do.
Tonight I got closer to the refused cat. W with more shit about dozing in front the TV. She said it irritates her and its my responsibility to stay awake. Wow. No sex in 6 years and... ...my responsibility WTF?
So, having taken better control of myself I decided not to respond. No point in having the argument because I'm not going PIV or anything else with someone that has no desire for me. I just sat there thinking OK, got the gym membership going, and looked up 6 lawyers now stored on my phone to get consults, and the plan is rolling forward.
Technically unemployed next week so no excuses on time 'cept holiday closures. Week after that I'm outta here for another week so a good break there.
Really I want to stay friends, but if she makes that impossible it will be on her. The cat has given up the chase. Chastity is also off the table, though still not in a rush on that score - but hoping sooner than 13 months..
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 21, 2017 7:36:37 GMT -5
“Tonight I got closer to the refused cat. W with more shit about dozing in front the TV. She said it irritates her and its my responsibility to stay awake. Wow. No sex in 6 years and... ...my responsibility WTF?”
She is selfish, controlling, narcisstic and a bitch. I hope you walked away and went to bed if you were that tired. I also hope that you are finding things to do away from her that you enjoy . Was she this selfishly demanding when you were courting? What attracted you to her?
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Post by M2G on Dec 21, 2017 8:45:07 GMT -5
“Tonight I got closer to the refused cat. W with more shit about dozing in front the TV. She said it irritates her and its my responsibility to stay awake. Wow. No sex in 6 years and... ...my responsibility WTF?” She is selfish, controlling, narcisstic and a bitch. I hope you walked away and went to bed if you were that tired. I also hope that you are finding things to do away from her that you enjoy . Was she this selfishly demanding when you were courting? What attracted you to her? Not at all selfish or demanding - and all we did was screw each other silly every chance we got, anywhere we were, and that lasted through the first 15 years of our relationship & marriage. Joined a gym this week. Next week will be between jobs so lawyers will be consulted doing the free time. Starting a new lifestyle that keeps me out of the house as much as possible. Just getting too depressed living with a former lover who is now just a friend with demands.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 21, 2017 11:46:21 GMT -5
Would you take a vow in front of friends and family to enlist in this for the rest of your lives - either of you? And how about this: Would you even go on a second date? No and no! But, that doesn't mean I'm quite ready to destroy my family and our collective financial well-being. When I am, I'll know. For now, I'm working on myself and being present with what is (instead of lamenting what is not). That's a practice that can't hurt the situation. It is achingly frustrating at times. That won't change. I have good days and bad. On the bad days, I reach out to the friends I know I can count on. It can't hurt the situation? It's worth considering what happens in the situation over time. Do you believe it will remain static and frustratingly manageable across, say, the next decade? Do you think that the few years of celibacy you have now will command the same level of attention or priority in a decade? Guilt is an anchor. That's not to say it's wrong to be a rooting force, or that the choice has ever been easy - but it does perpetuate the status quo... the guilt and reasonable fear. You and your partner in this arrangement both share a common circumstance: you both feel trapped in a marriage that is unsatisfying sexually and is celibate as a result. You both are choosing to present to others and to each other as "married" even though by your own admission, the reality of your relationship wouldn't qualify for a second date. Neither of you would choose this life or this partner if you found out somehow that your marriage was invalid and you had to do it again. Your partner's choice seems clear: either it's a discrete affair or a celibate situation - a price they are willing to pay to keep using the associated benefits of marriage. You, however, are having more difficulty bearing that cost. In my experience, these things don't stay static once the elephant in the room has been named. There is a tendency in the more invested of the pair to take on oneself the greater share of burden in saving something that's already been lost. After all, with your partner actively avoiding sex and discussion about it - it means you appear to be the agent of change. But look closely though. Frequently (I've seen this in the post-divorce singles world many times) and my own case was no exception, people who fee trapped in a marriage (including your celibate partner) aren't on their best behaviour with each other. The resentment of the cost of their own decision (to stay) gets projected onto the face of the person who fails to provide the marriage envisioned, or who doesn't live up to the fantasy they desired. Quite often, that resentment builds to a justification of infidelity at some point, and increasing contempt aside from that. The contempt and behaviors that are incompatible with monogamous marriage happen because it's impossible to live into perpetuity, a lie about feeling loved or so unfulfilled. The less invested partner (or the one who is choosing to be less honest about this dissatisfaction), sees the dynamic in which the other partner picks up the greater share of burden in desperately trying to please the other and hold on to the shreds of romance, and instead of making it easier - increases the cost by behaving badly. You think you can bear this burden now, with difficulty? Wait until later - your partner will increase the cost as well. Throwing in the towel on the fantasy of a marriage - I guess it's more about admitting intention than anything - an intent to go your own way if your partner isn't travelling with you -- risks a massive surge of truth about how you both really feel about each other and your situation. It risks the other benefits: shared finances, convenience in lifestyle, parenting, even social standing among friendly couples and family. It's possible to negotiate all of those things or most of them, without being tied to a marital expectation. It's possible to lose them, as well, because you can't control what another person does or feels. One thing is certain though, the odds of a less acrimoniously costly divorce are way better if there is love, care, or respect between both former partners. The longer an unsatisfying and misaligned marriage goes on, the greater the resentment and blame. Both end up at the same place - but one costs less than the other and retains more of what's worth saving.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 21, 2017 12:09:26 GMT -5
I can imagine it must therefore be 10X as hard if the Refused is a women. Society views men as the pursuer and women as the pretty and pursued. When a woman is being rejected it must sting very hard. She would be feeling all sorts of negative soul destroying emotions, why doesn't he want me, am i really that ughly etc etc. "Society" doesn't feel rejected; the person in the relationship does. Whatever the "society" from forever-ago narrative is, it doesn't really matter in terms of feelings felt. Generally, a married person generally assumes they are out of the pursuit game. The feeling held by either gender is generally "Even my own wife/husband doesn't want me, so nobody else would either". That feeling can lead one to thinking strange thoughts that may be totally misaligned with how the rest of the world considers your value. In my experience reading here, this is not at all a gendered issue.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 10:02:53 GMT -5
This sounds pessimistic, but the definition of hope is practically "anticipating an outcome that the facts don't support". I no longer hope for anything. If I want something I go out and get it. If it can't be had then I move on. Awe guys, how do you live without hope? Maybe Hope is looking forward to a point beyond the present trouble or struggle where these things are solved, better managed, or replaced with something completely different and better. Not anticipating an impossibility, but a real and beautiful future that's more than merely possible. It's a certainty based on a well established plan and diligent, hard work. DryCreek, you defined "False Hope". That's not much good at all. I think they call that: "Wish". Aren't both of you working toward something good? Way better than the current Status Quo? Maybe something you can't guarantee, but you can definitely set circumstances to improve it's likelihood of occurring? There's always hope for folks like @elle. It seems Hope rides hand in hand with Courage, Determination, and Hard Work. Without these, there's no Hope.
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Post by bballgirl on Dec 22, 2017 10:35:45 GMT -5
This sounds pessimistic, but the definition of hope is practically "anticipating an outcome that the facts don't support". I no longer hope for anything. If I want something I go out and get it. If it can't be had then I move on. Awe guys, how do you live without hope? Maybe Hope is looking forward to a point beyond the present trouble or struggle where these things are solved, better managed, or replaced with something completely different and better. Not anticipating an impossibility, but a real and beautiful future that's more than merely possible. It's a certainty based on a well established plan and diligent, hard work. DryCreek, you defined "False Hope". That's not much good at all. I think they call that: "Wish". Aren't both of you working toward something good? Way better than the current Status Quo? Maybe something you can't guarantee, but you can definitely set circumstances to improve it's likelihood of occurring? There's always hope for folks like @elle. It seems Hope rides hand in hand with Courage, Determination, and Hard Work. Without these, there's no Hope. Well I know what you mean and I do have hope for certain things but those things are not dependent on another person. I hope to retire someday. I hope to take my kids to the Dali Museum this Summer. Things of that nature where I'm in control. I don't hope or depend on anyone for anything.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 22, 2017 10:53:29 GMT -5
Awe guys, how do you live without hope? Maybe Hope is looking forward to a point beyond the present trouble or struggle where these things are solved, better managed, or replaced with something completely different and better. Not anticipating an impossibility, but a real and beautiful future that's more than merely possible. It's a certainty based on a well established plan and diligent, hard work. DryCreek , you defined "False Hope". That's not much good at all. I think they call that: "Wish". Aren't both of you working toward something good? Way better than the current Status Quo? Maybe something you can't guarantee, but you can definitely set circumstances to improve it's likelihood of occurring? There's always hope for folks like @elle . It seems Hope rides hand in hand with Courage, Determination, and Hard Work. Without these, there's no Hope. Well I know what you mean and I do have hope for certain things but those things are not dependent on another person. I hope to retire someday. I hope to take my kids to the Dali Museum this Summer. Things of that nature where I'm in control. I don't hope or depend on anyone for anything. I can sure agree with that bballgirl, but here comes the rub. This is so difficult, it's hard to put in a sentence, ... I don't have the words for it ,yet.... I/we have to depend on someone else when it comes to sex and intimacy. Putting trust in someone else, giving up a portion of control and depending on receiving back, and being submissive and vulnerable, something I was too good at! So many other aspects of your life can be structured around yourself, and a relationship with a "higher power", but with sex and intimacy? Not designed that way, it now involves another person.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 22, 2017 11:00:58 GMT -5
Awe guys, how do you live without hope? "Hope is not a strategy." I wish I could remember the source, but I suspect it was a military general. Hope is a very powerful double-edged emotion. It can energize you to aspire, achieve great things, and escape dark times. But it can also motivate you to delay taking action in the face of obvious facts. That's false hope, as you point out, and it's critical to tell the two apart.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 11:22:17 GMT -5
Awe guys, how do you live without hope? Maybe Hope is looking forward to a point beyond the present trouble or struggle where these things are solved, better managed, or replaced with something completely different and better. Not anticipating an impossibility, but a real and beautiful future that's more than merely possible. It's a certainty based on a well established plan and diligent, hard work. DryCreek , you defined "False Hope". That's not much good at all. I think they call that: "Wish". Aren't both of you working toward something good? Way better than the current Status Quo? Maybe something you can't guarantee, but you can definitely set circumstances to improve it's likelihood of occurring? There's always hope for folks like @elle . It seems Hope rides hand in hand with Courage, Determination, and Hard Work. Without these, there's no Hope. Well I know what you mean and I do have hope for certain things but those things are not dependent on another person. I hope to retire someday. I hope to take my kids to the Dali Museum this Summer. Things of that nature where I'm in control. I don't hope or depend on anyone for anything. Well bballgirl, you know I have the utmost respect for your brilliance and ability to separate treasure from the turds. Suppose man or woman Hopes to have a deep meaningful relationship. But at the moment he/she is in a miserable marriage. That person: Diligently learns Exactly what "Deep Meaningful Relationships" are made of and how they are best accomplished. Diligently works to create that in their marriage using all resources available to them. Works hard to keep their mind and body occupied at a useful and always improving vocation. Works hard to keep their body in top physical condition, health, and appearance. Works hard to improve and keep their character in top condition. If that doesn't work, they develop and execute an exit plan from the marriage caring for the welfare of their kids and even the spouse that couldn't participate in the growth necessary to achieve the model relationship. Through this exit plan they continue to learn, grow, develop, and improve themselves in Character, Mind, Spirit, Body, and even Profession. They maintain the hope that the relationship is possible. Would you agree this Hope is founded? It isn't false hope or wishful thinking? While it does depend somewhat on "Someone Else", that someone else is more likely to have the character and tools necessary to deliver on the promise of a dedicated, sober, present, and conscious relationship. This person's deliberate, conscious, activity and work is Very Likely to put them in contact with a like-minded counterpart with which they are Likely to achieve that "Deep Meaningful Relationship" they have been working toward. This can take YEARS, but the Hope can sustain them through those years and give them Courage, sustain their Determination, and spur them on to do the Hard Work necessary to get to this wonderful place where none of the bad years matter anymore. I see folks EVERYWHERE rebuilding beautiful lives with WAY less than I have, and that gives me Hope. I read the stories from folks like WindSister and they give me Hope. I know she didn't just wander around aimlessly "Wishing" for something good to happen to her (Please don't burst my bubble if you did). And I Double Know, she didn't sit around complaining about how the Universe has served her a excrement sandwich she can't do anything with. I'm thinking Hope is Fun in and of itself. I'm pretty sure it Heals and Improves Life even before the things hoped for are realized. And I know from experience that folks without Hope are dead in their tracks. Zombies. They're ruining anything and everything of value in their lives. And worse yet, they destroy the people in their lives that's willing to be dragged down by them. Hope is Good and Necessary. No?
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Post by bballgirl on Dec 22, 2017 11:26:42 GMT -5
Well I know what you mean and I do have hope for certain things but those things are not dependent on another person. I hope to retire someday. I hope to take my kids to the Dali Museum this Summer. Things of that nature where I'm in control. I don't hope or depend on anyone for anything. I can sure agree with that bballgirl, but here comes the rub. This is so difficult, it's hard to put in a sentence, ... I don't have the words for it ,yet.... I/we have to depend on someone else when it comes to sex and intimacy. Putting trust in someone else, giving up a portion of control and depending on receiving back, and being submissive and vulnerable, something I was too good at! So many other aspects of your life can be structured around yourself, and a relationship with a "higher power", but with sex and intimacy? Not designed that way, it now involves another person. Yes I agree. I no longer have HOPE to have sex however at the same time I know I will. I just can't say something like I hope I get to have sex this weekend because it depends on someone else. I can say with authority I hope I'm not celibate because I know I can get laid. Hope and Sex can no longer be in the same sentence for me because I will not allow my hopes to be dependent on another person.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 11:30:31 GMT -5
Well I know what you mean and I do have hope for certain things but those things are not dependent on another person. I hope to retire someday. I hope to take my kids to the Dali Museum this Summer. Things of that nature where I'm in control. I don't hope or depend on anyone for anything. I can sure agree with that bballgirl, but here comes the rub. This is so difficult, it's hard to put in a sentence, ... I don't have the words for it ,yet.... I/we have to depend on someone else when it comes to sex and intimacy. Putting trust in someone else, giving up a portion of control and depending on receiving back, and being submissive and vulnerable, something I was too good at! So many other aspects of your life can be structured around yourself, and a relationship with a "higher power", but with sex and intimacy? Not designed that way, it now involves another person. We're social creatures. We NEED other folks. Not just for "Sex and Intimacy", but for food and spindle bearings. If we're going to do well, we should find the best people to work with us for our Food and Spindle Bearings. The likelihood of Finding those Best People is maximized by us working hard to be our best people. And again that work, planning, and executing the plan provides Hope. And Hope energizes the plan and work.
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