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Post by winter123 on Dec 18, 2017 11:49:57 GMT -5
So feel for u....going through the same thing and it us torture. In all of this what gets me the most is where is the basic human element of ‘how does my spouse feel with me behaving like this?’ or ‘how selfish and one sided can a person be?’, ‘why get married if u have no intention of intimacy/sex?’ It’s best to stay friends is it not? Sex/intimacy in marriage is the one thing that separates your relationship from all other relationships - it is vital and you can’t sustain a marriage without it.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 18, 2017 12:26:07 GMT -5
So feel for u....going through the same thing and it us torture. In all of this what gets me the most is where is the basic human element of ‘how does my spouse feel with me behaving like this?’ or ‘how selfish and one sided can a person be?’, ‘why get married if u have no intention of intimacy/sex?’ It’s best to stay friends is it not? Sex/intimacy in marriage is the one thing that separates your relationship from all other relationships - it is vital and you can’t sustain a marriage without it. I think understanding your spouse can help you plot out a better outcome. Your questions are good ones, and they have answers that you can draw from your own experiences. Given the lengths and risks that people go to to have sex with each other when it is difficult, it's reasonably safe to say that your partner doesn't desire you. Start answering the questions from that point.
Assuming you mean, "how does my spouse feel with me not engaging in sex with her/him?". It's likely a crisis for your spouse too, with the catalyst being your unwillingness to suffer the celibacy quietly, like he or she is. If your spouse doesn't desire you, then their goal is to have the minimum amount of sex possible, balanced against the amount of dissatisfaction expressed at the celibacy. They likely have their own dissatisfaction with their own celibate situation, plus they are dealing with your vocal dissatisfaction that calls attention to the celibacy they are trying not to think about. In nearly every person who I've spoken to in this situation, the spouse who is averse to intimacy with his or her partner says the same thing. They feel trapped. Is it selfish to not, or to no longer, feel desire for a person who desires you? Not really. From their standpoint, YOU are the one who is selfishly asking for sexual service from a person who doesn't desire you, and they aren't wrong. I think the starting assumption (and I'm guilty of it too) is that it's a mistake or lapse of marital manners, like stepping on a dance partner's toe. If such was the case, then the remedy might be to take more care or learn to dance, so that you don't accidentally hurt your dance partner. However, what if it is actually a case that your partner does not enjoy dancing with you and does not want to dance with you? Yet, you insist on dancing. This is where there is ample ore to mine to eventually find the forgiveness that will release you, so that hopefully you can let go the fight you are clinging to that keeps you pinned to each other. What can possibly prepare a person for marriage - for engaging in an intimate relationship that is intended to last for many decades, until death. You don't know who that other person will become. You don't know who you will become. Nothing can prepare a person for marriage, but marriage. Maybe they felt, as Mrs. Apocrypha did, that if they were going to get married, their "best shot" at it would be with someone like me. That's high praise from Mrs. Apocrypha, but she wouldn't know enough to raise it at the time that it fell well short of my minimum threshold of enthusiasm for the enterprise, and would have changed my intention. Maybe they didn't want to get married but also didn't want to split. Maybe they never intended to drop sex, but something happened, or failed to happen, that changed the calculus somehow so that they no longer felt safe or attracted in the same way. At this point in the separation, with both of us defogged - I now have a reasonable idea that Mrs Apocrypha never thought herself the marrying type (it's actually in her wedding speech), and that she never really wanted to be married. She viewed marriage as something very different from me and never fully vested herself in the relationship the way I did. She enacted the milestones, each time thinking that aping the behaviors of marriage would make her feel less trapped by it, but it only further enhanced her sense of doom. I am angry with her for her terrible mistake, and I'm angry at myself as well - since it was my mistake as well. But it doesn't help to dwell on it. I'm not sure if "friends" is the right term for an ex-spouse - at least in defining the format of the relationship. An ex-spouse is generally it's own kind of relationship, like an aunt, or an ex-girlfriend - a format or relation that has a special kind of status that might mean something to you or to other people. I think that if there are kids involved, and it's likely you are going to be in each other's lives in one way or another, that it's helpful for both of you to work at being "friendly" when you are able. It's maybe encouraging to intend to be friends, but becoming friends is really more a result of behaviours and circumstances than anything else. It helps to have separation, particularly for the person who is more invested in the relationship.
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Post by M2G on Dec 18, 2017 13:22:36 GMT -5
The less resentment is part of the healing, letting it go, calling it out for what it truly is and knowing how it affected you, daily, and above all FORGIVING YOURSELF! Now THAT is a big problem for me, as I work through not just the SM but my PD issues - forgiving myself for the last 37 years (between leaving home for marriage and now) of inaction when it comes to my childhood "faulty programming." I understand it wasn't my fault, but forgive myself? Not so simple. Other hand, my wife is from a similar background - she tells me stuff her parents did to her and later thinking about it I can get enraged on her behalf, SHE WAS JUST A LITTLE GIRL!!! - but not so much enraged on the behalf of the little kid that I used to be. What's germane to this thread is this: Don't make 13 months into 3, 4, 6 years (where I am now in the SM) or longer - certainly not 37, to take any action. I stay now because my PD W understands my PD ways, and we can help each other in almost all ways but the bedroom. That really hurts, but for now, that's a good solution for me. Don't be like me, if you can muster the courage to move forward.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 19, 2017 10:00:54 GMT -5
The less resentment is part of the healing, letting it go, calling it out for what it truly is and knowing how it affected you, daily, and above all FORGIVING YOURSELF! Now THAT is a big problem for me, as I work through not just the SM but my PD issues - forgiving myself for the last 37 years (between leaving home for marriage and now) of inaction when it comes to my childhood "faulty programming." I understand it wasn't my fault, but forgive myself? Not so simple. Other hand, my wife is from a similar background - she tells me stuff her parents did to her and later thinking about it I can get enraged on her behalf, SHE WAS JUST A LITTLE GIRL!!! - but not so much enraged on the behalf of the little kid that I used to be. What's germane to this thread is this: Don't make 13 months into 3, 4, 6 years (where I am now in the SM) or longer - certainly not 37, to take any action. I stay now because my PD W understands my PD ways, and we can help each other in almost all ways but the bedroom. That really hurts, but for now, that's a good solution for me. Don't be like me, if you can muster the courage to move forward. Here's a quote from the book "Growing Through Divorce" by Jim Smoke pgs. 93-94. Many people who experience divorce ( a SM) cannot forgive themselves for whatever part they played in the process. They end up playing the game of "If only I'd..." There is no way you can win this game because you can't change anything. What has happened is history. Forgiving yourself means: * I accept my humanity as a human being. * I have the freedom to fail. * I accept responsibility for my failures. * I can forgive myself for my failures. * I accept God's forgiveness. * I can begin again. Many people live under the yoke of self-imposed guilt.They are unable to accept the fact that to be human means you will make mistakes. Until they can experience the refreshing climate of self-forgiveness, they will not enjoy their humanity. I FORGIVE MY FORMER SPOUSE I can hear you saying, "Now that's carrying things too far!" After all that my he or she has done to me, I will never forgive my former spouse." When a person is caught in the heat of argument and emotional combat, forgiveness is usually the very last happening that comes to mind. Be aware that forgiveness is is not an instant happening but a process that you grow into. A person asked me recently what to say to a former spouse in this area. You might start by saying, " I'm sorry. I ask your forgiveness for all my mistakes and whatever part I might have played in contributing to our divorce." Sounds hard,doesn't it?. It is! But the personal sense of growth and well-being that comes from doing it makes it worthwhile. Asking forgiveness of a former spouse is admitting your weakness and the contributions you made to the divorce. It is saying that you were a part of the marriage, and a part of the divorce. It is also recognizing the worth of another person and that they are forgivable. Many post-divorce relationships remain hostile and tense for years. Forgiving a former/current spouse means asking forgiveness for your wrongs and also giving forgiveness to the former spouse for their wrongs. remember you are only accountable for yourself. It is not your job to remind others of their wrongs so that they can ask you to forgive them. MY FORMER SPOUSE FORGIVES ME What if they don't? You have just put yourself on the line and asked for forgiveness. The response may not have been what you hoped for. Forgiveness was refused, treated lightly, laughed at, or just ignored. What do you do now? Nothing! You have fulfilled your part of the responsibility. You can not elicit or control the responses you want from other people. If they choose to ignore you, then you must let it be their problem. You can be confident that you have done all that you can and the rest is upon them.
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Post by M2G on Dec 19, 2017 10:27:48 GMT -5
That's all sound and true and I tell myself that often enough to believe it on in intellectual level - but thinking it's true doesn't make anything feel better, at least not yet.
Wish I could cry about it, or scream, or something - but the boiler's run out of fuel & I just sit - ambivalent. Better than rage though. I just have no empathy for ME. I do for my wife, I did this AM reading Darktippedrose's plight with her H, and many others, I feel for them, but not for me.
The past, as you say - is a frequent flyer; still practicing against it taking over all the time and that's helping.
Maybe there's some punishment I think i need, or something, back there in the depths - who knows?
W says she's not ready to forgive, though I've forgiven her. Probably that's part of it. The SM is a punishment "that I did to myself." I think THAT, is probably closest to the truth at the moment. Letting it go is easier said than done.
Ty for posting GC
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 19, 2017 13:29:24 GMT -5
That's all sound and true and I tell myself that often enough to believe it on in intellectual level - but thinking it's true doesn't make anything feel better, at least not yet. Wish I could cry about it, or scream, or something - but the boiler's run out of fuel & I just sit - ambivalent. Better than rage though. I just have no empathy for ME. I do for my wife, I did this AM reading Darktippedrose's plight with her H, and many others, I feel for them, but not for me. On empathy... I think a lot of people confuse it with sympathy or congeniality. For our purposes here, I take the practical view of it - which is about imagining or taking on someone else's point of view. The benefit of this isn't that one values their perspective over one's self, but rather than one can more easily acknowledge the truth of the situation without being clouded by what it should be. The most reasonable and generous reading of 99% of these situations begins and ends with the idea that the spouse is married to a person to whom they are not attracted. That spouse feels trapped, as well. There is no reason to think that the attraction will return - when does that ever happen in the singles world? Understanding that perspective (which they are likely to deny, while still avoiding sex), is the key that presents clear choices. Pretend to be married or end it.
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Post by M2G on Dec 19, 2017 13:53:50 GMT -5
That's all sound and true and I tell myself that often enough to believe it on in intellectual level - but thinking it's true doesn't make anything feel better, at least not yet. Wish I could cry about it, or scream, or something - but the boiler's run out of fuel & I just sit - ambivalent. Better than rage though. I just have no empathy for ME. I do for my wife, I did this AM reading Darktippedrose's plight with her H, and many others, I feel for them, but not for me. On empathy... I think a lot of people confuse it with sympathy or congeniality. For our purposes here, I take the practical view of it - which is about imagining or taking on someone else's point of view. The benefit of this isn't that one values their perspective over one's self, but rather than one can more easily acknowledge the truth of the situation without being clouded by what it should be. The most reasonable and generous reading of 99% of these situations begins and ends with the idea that the spouse is married to a person to whom they are not attracted. That spouse feels trapped, as well. There is no reason to think that the attraction will return - when does that ever happen in the singles world? Understanding that perspective (which they are likely to deny, while still avoiding sex), is the key that presents clear choices. Pretend to be married or end it. Empathy I was referring to was for my "child self" during the years of physical, sexual & emotional abuse both I and my W suffered at the hands of our respective families. Still feeling responsible on my end even though it makes no rational sense. The shame is still a massive stumbling block. As referenced to the SM I think you're dead on - and in that capacity there are a lot of mixed feelings/emotions: Frustration, regret, sense of loss, helplessness & hopelessness. I mixed bag of hurtful shit, to be sure. My fear though, is just leaving may not help with my present state of mind - so no good reason to flee the scene right now, as we are currently helping each other. Personally though, I think adding sex into the mix would fix a lot of things - however W's last brush with sexual assault is making a huge appearance in the form of PTSD. All peace and quiet and therapy ATM. Need to give it some time. Things are peaceful again since the 12th of Dec. I mean to keep it that way if at all possible.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 19, 2017 15:15:43 GMT -5
“Wish I could cry about it, or scream, or something - but the boiler's run out of fuel & I just sit - ambivalent. Better than rage though. I just have no empathy for ME. I do for my wife, I did this AM reading Darktippedrose's plight with her H, and many others, I feel for them, but not for me.”
Individual therapy could help you empathize with yourself.
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Post by M2G on Dec 19, 2017 15:39:20 GMT -5
“Wish I could cry about it, or scream, or something - but the boiler's run out of fuel & I just sit - ambivalent. Better than rage though. I just have no empathy for ME. I do for my wife, I did this AM reading Darktippedrose's plight with her H, and many others, I feel for them, but not for me.” Individual therapy could help you empathize with yourself. Good call - and I may be going that route. My book therapy says make a collage of pictures etc with pics of me as a little kid. So I blew it up to a full video. Will see what happens there, and go from there once I get settled in the new job.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 22:21:50 GMT -5
The marriage you have is a fantasy - a memory of a fantasy you used to have. Reality is that your relationship resembles amicable ex-spouses. Maybe strive toward doing the latter really well, and it might remove some of the hurt. This is a very wise assessment and good advice. And very similar to what my therapist said the other day. "It sounds as though you're already divorced; you're just not calling it that!" I'm working right now to see my H and my marriage for what they are (boy that's a tough one, isn't it?) and to accept that it won't change. I'm trying not to be hurt by who my H is and not to ask him to change. After all, my H just wants to be loved exactly as he is (don't we all?). If I try to do that, the best case scenario is that we come to a new acceptance of each other (maybe love even grows there?), and the worst case scenario is that we become friends. And what happens after that almost doesn't even matter. For now, I'm also looking deep within. I have a lot of my own character defects that need fixing. I'm working on those too. It's the season to make resolutions and I have another long list this year. Thankfully, I'll never get bored!
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tori
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Post by tori on Dec 20, 2017 7:21:59 GMT -5
I don't think the question is "Does a marriage recover from that" which in my mind the answer is probably "No" - especially when the man is the refuser. I think there is a little bit of a different dynamic when the husband is a refuser vs the wife is a refuser. I think it's easier to repair when the wife is the refuser if she's committed to saving the marriage but ultimately I believe that people enjoy sex or they don't OR they desire you or they don't. So back to what is the question: Is a marriage a marriage without sex to you? To me a marriage includes sex and being sexual. That is part of the reason how getting back with my ex and living together is working for me because we are not married. We are friends, co parents, and companions. For now while launching my kids that works for me. I think if they don't treat us like a husband or wife then they do not deserve to be our husband or wife. Girl!! Well said!!
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 20, 2017 12:05:04 GMT -5
I'm working right now to see my H and my marriage for what they are (boy that's a tough one, isn't it?) and to accept that it won't change. I'm trying not to be hurt by who my H is and not to ask him to change. After all, my H just wants to be loved exactly as he is (don't we all?). If I try to do that, the best case scenario is that we come to a new acceptance of each other (maybe love even grows there?), and the worst case scenario is that we become friends. And what happens after that almost doesn't even matter. For now, I'm also looking deep within. I have a lot of my own character defects that need fixing. I'm working on those too. It's the season to make resolutions and I have another long list this year. Thankfully, I'll never get bored! An approach to take can be to look at the scenario faced, rather than who your husband is. The scenario is that your husband doesn't desire you. He might love you in the ways that people feel and express love to each other apart from desire, but your romantic aspirations are not reciprocated. It's tempting to think that amorous love might kindle anew with an acceptance of the situation and a lack of "pressure" or attempts to change the situation. I certainly tried that route, as requested, but friends was not what I really wanted. I wanted a marriage - the one I signed up for - with a person who loved and desired me - who was invested and who didn't feel trapped. We circled this many times in therapy, but it really is a bridge to far to ask or demand someone you desire. An ex-spouse is its own relation, apart from friends or lovers. It's one that's anointed later in life, and it can take many forms. I don't think it's wrong to envision a future in which friendship can happen, but it's not an easy path, especially when more distance is required. The first job is to come to the truth of the relationship as it is, and ask yourself whether it qualifies in either of your minds as a marriage. Would you take a vow in front of friends and family to enlist in this for the rest of your lives - either of you? And how about this: Would you even go on a second date?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 14:49:47 GMT -5
Would you take a vow in front of friends and family to enlist in this for the rest of your lives - either of you? And how about this: Would you even go on a second date? No and no! But, that doesn't mean I'm quite ready to destroy my family and our collective financial well-being. When I am, I'll know. For now, I'm working on myself and being present with what is (instead of lamenting what is not). That's a practice that can't hurt the situation. It is achingly frustrating at times. That won't change. I have good days and bad. On the bad days, I reach out to the friends I know I can count on.
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Post by orangepeel on Dec 20, 2017 19:55:08 GMT -5
The refused is now a counter-refuser and no longer feels very forgiving!! I am sick to death of forgiving. One person cannot fix a marriage alone. So. Done. You and me both: I had five years of increasingly grudging sack-of-spuds sex, decided I couldn’t tolerate the insult to my dignity any longer and here I am now, five and a bit counter-refusing sexless years later. But I’d still rather cut my cock off than let her near it. Not that my bravado’s been tested, you understand.
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Post by Frustrated1978 on Dec 20, 2017 20:42:22 GMT -5
There is no doubt that when one is in a sexless relationship the Refused spouse's self esteem suffers greatly. As a result this has all sorts of knock on events that negatively affect the life of the refused.
I can imagine it must therefore be 10X as hard if the Refused is a women. Society views men as the pursuer and women as the pretty and pursued. When a woman is being rejected it must sting very hard. She would be feeling all sorts of negative soul destroying emotions, why doesn't he want me, am i really that ughly etc etc.
Life is too short to allow yourself to be in such a negative relationship.
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