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Post by choosinghappy on Dec 11, 2017 9:49:12 GMT -5
It’s hard to “like” that comment DryCreek. And again, it makes me go back to the “what about outsourcing?” question. I know it doesn’t solve the problem, but neither does your cycle of pain and frustration.
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Post by neonspace on Dec 11, 2017 15:16:46 GMT -5
I think it goes in stages. I went through some stages where I said I wouldn't pressure only to find myself caving later. I don't do it any more, because I know it won't matter, she won't notice or if she does, she won't care enough to lead to any change in behavior.
Give it some time, a person can only take so much before they give up completely.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 11, 2017 16:35:52 GMT -5
If she doesn't desire you, then your not "pressuring" her for sex is a relief for her. On the other hand, you become more aware and less content over time. You will either snap and suffer the humiliation of rejection again, or you will express your contempt. Either way, your tension increases while hers drops, as you shoulder her share of burden of your misalignment.
That's not going anywhere near "harmony".
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 11, 2017 16:46:50 GMT -5
if she does, she won't care enough to lead to any change in behavior. Bear with me for a moment as I reframe this. Why is the burden of changing on her? She clearly doesn't desire you. Is your proposal that she have sex with a person whom she does not desire on a regular basis for the rest of her life? It sounds like the fate that evil princes mete on their unwilling betrothed in fairy tales. A change of behavior such as having sex with someone who you don't fuck, at present, is the result of having desire for that person. She can no more consciously change her desire than you can change yours. It's not really something that people control directly. You can change your behavior though. While you can't make her have sex with you nor make her want you, you can separate until YOUR mindset changes and you no longer desire this person with whom you don't have a sexual relationship with either. Then you can discuss your relationship format from a standpoint that is more true to your actual feelings for each other - and decide what to do about that. At the moment, you are choosing to behave as a married person in a household that does not include a romantic element - which I assume you both felt was a pretty basic criterium for a marriage. So, why is the burden of changing all on her?
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Post by jim44444 on Dec 11, 2017 18:01:17 GMT -5
...or you will express your contempt. Oh yeah, I am getting very adept at expressing contempt.
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Post by ironhamster on Dec 12, 2017 6:35:25 GMT -5
If you have to pressure your spouse to have sex with you, is that really the kind of sex you want?
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Post by brian on Dec 12, 2017 6:57:35 GMT -5
If you have to pressure your spouse to have sex with you, is that really the kind of sex you want? Absolutely not! Which is why my "pressure" is always in the form of a snide comment or a humorous comeback to something said or the situation at hand. She doesn't want to have sex with me. She sees it as a chore. So I am not going to try to pressure, force, cajole, or coerce her into having sex with me. When she says, "I'm working on it," I do look for evidence, but all of the evidence I ever find is a brief period of toleration and a quick return to status quo... like all of the other times she claims to have been "trying". I have no expectations other than sexlessness and possibly a 3-minute annual fuck (no orgasms allowed) when she believes she needs to.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 12, 2017 7:33:20 GMT -5
“Absolutely not! Which is why my "pressure" is always in the form of a snide comment or a humorous comeback to something said or the situation at hand”
Snide comments are not an aphrodisiac. Btdt with expressing contempt to my refuser after I decided to stop asking him for sex. How I expressed contempt was eye rolling. I read that contempt was what marriage researcher Gottman found was the strongest predictor of divorce within 5 years. I thought that didn’t apply to me. But less than 3 years later, I asked for a divorce and with no regrets set myself free of a marriage that no longer was a marriage.
Incidentally, my refuser never reacted to my contempt. I don’t think he still cared enough for me to react to it. Nor did it inspire him to fuck me.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 12, 2017 10:10:54 GMT -5
If you have to pressure your spouse to have sex with you, is that really the kind of sex you want? Absolutely not! Which is why my "pressure" is always in the form of a snide comment or a humorous comeback to something said or the situation at hand. She doesn't want to have sex with me. She sees it as a chore. So I am not going to try to pressure, force, cajole, or coerce her into having sex with me. When she says, "I'm working on it," I do look for evidence, but all of the evidence I ever find is a brief period of toleration and a quick return to status quo... like all of the other times she claims to have been "trying". I have no expectations other than sexlessness and possibly a 3-minute annual fuck (no orgasms allowed) when she believes she needs to. The sex part is really super-easy if you desire someone, and yet it isn't happening. So, how do you "work on" desiring someone? You want to know the size of what the two of you are up against? Think of a person in your life who you definitely don't want to have sex with. Now, imagine that for the rest of your life, you have to have sex with that person at least once a week. If you don't, you will be a bad, uncaring person - a cold fish, a prude, a person who doesn't care about his partner. A person who deserves contempt. You each have all the data you are ever going to get to assess nature of your relationship. It's now a question of what you each do with that truth, and when. If you are deep in contempt, but still invested in the fantasy of the marriage, whatever is left will be bent to the point of snapping. One of you will cheat, or already has. I recall my wife screaming at me - bending herself over a bed and yanking her pants down, furiously screaming "here it is!" - getting right up in my grill, inches from my face and yelling, and even hitting me. I recall bending over her in the bed and shrieking at her that she obviously hated me. Little postcards from the future. I'd wish for both of you that you don't go that far - that you save the love that you have left for each other because you are going to wish you had a little in the post-divorce when you need to see each other - but no one can really be told this. I think the most gentle landing from a marriage deal that has reached Stage 4 Terminal Celibacy and Contempt, is to swim back to empathy for each other, and toward authenticity with yourselves. It means coming to an understanding that your wife is the protagonist and hero in her own story, and you are every bit the villain she is in yours. You both are choosing a celibate marriage for the associated benefits it brings, and you both are living an unwanted celibate life (you assume) as the price of those benefits. How much are those benefits worth?
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 12, 2017 10:31:29 GMT -5
It’s hard to “like” that comment DryCreek . And again, it makes me go back to the “what about outsourcing?” question. I know it doesn’t solve the problem, but neither does your cycle of pain and frustration. There are two versions of outsourcing: 1. Transparency, some form of "open marriage" 2. an illicit affair Transparency is like paying cash for a luxury item. You and your partner will feel the real cost instantly, and possibly in time to react and change your behaviors. It will force some kind of reaction. Even your partner's total indifference will say volumes - and will be reflected upon by both of you. Successful long term open deals - whether they are wittols, cuckolds, cuckqueans, hotwives, swingers, polyamorists or whatever - always have one thing in common: BOTH partners are freaky enough to get t urned on to each other by their partners' participation in the activity. In some cases, it's the habits, extra attention and check ins with each other that make them feel cared for and connected - perhaps a bit like when anyone engages in a hazardous expedition like mountain climbing, deep wilderness camping, or scuba diving. It's a thing they do together (even if it is apart). It's a bunjee jump of trust, so if one partner is not really invested, and is resentful about it - he/she will find a way to express that contempt, and will do so within the volatile and unpredictable tableaux of the open relationship. An illicit affair is like taking a high interest loan - that could be called at any time - to buy a depreciating asset. There is a ceiling to an affair's potential, in which real feelings take root, but the covert nature of the activity means you are unable to function as a normal couple. You'd be surprised at how much you'd want to hold your partner's hand at an event with friends, and the toll it takes when you can't, and when you just can't make long term plans with each other. Over time, you'll look back at the amount of romantic time and attention you've invested - and the better it's been, the more you will wonder if it's been bet on a losing deal. Because once that married person leaves their partner - it's a whole new ballgame. And that's even if they ever do.
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Post by csl on Dec 13, 2017 15:27:48 GMT -5
.... When she says, "I'm working on it," I do look for evidence, but all of the evidence I ever find is a brief period of toleration and a quick return to status quo... Since your super power is your snide comment, I'm amazed that you haven't had this missile queued up: "I'm working on it." "Not so's anyone would notice. Michealangelo was a speed demon doing the Sistine Chapel compared to you." You're welcome.
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Post by ironhamster on Dec 13, 2017 22:50:32 GMT -5
Regarding pressure. My wife did not like the pressure I put on her, and I put a lot of pressure on her, from outright requests for intimacy, to requests to open the marriage, to the appearance of affairs. All was disregarded until I stopped. The silence was deafening to her. Suddenly, she started initiating sex a lot, like, about once every four to six weeks.
Me rolling off her last month and telling her I was done probably ended her attempts. If that did not end it, my admission that I was indeed having an affair did. I am thankful for that. I do not want sex with someone that does not want me. Duty sex has gotten really repulsive, whether pressured or not.
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Post by jim44444 on Jan 5, 2018 18:22:12 GMT -5
... Transparency is like paying cash for a luxury item. You and your partner will feel the real cost instantly, and possibly in time to react and change your behaviors. It will force some kind of reaction. Even your partner's total indifference will say volumes - and will be reflected upon by both of you. Successful long term open deals - whether they are wittols, cuckolds, cuckqueans, hotwives, swingers, polyamorists or whatever - always have one thing in common: BOTH partners are freaky enough to get turned on to each other by their partners' participation in the activity. In some cases, it's the habits, extra attention and check ins with each other that make them feel cared for and connected - perhaps a bit like when anyone engages in a hazardous expedition like mountain climbing, deep wilderness camping, or scuba diving. It's a thing they do together (even if it is apart). It's a bunjee jump of trust, so if one partner is not really invested, and is resentful about it - he/she will find a way to express that contempt, and will do so within the volatile and unpredictable tableaux of the open relationship. ... I missed this golden gem of wisdom when it was posted, the emphasis is mine. So often people suggest asking for an open relationship without considering that an open relationship must be beneficial and desirable to both partners.
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Post by rubyslippers on Jan 13, 2018 1:52:26 GMT -5
I tried the no pressure route...could never make it more than about six weeks without trying. It doesn't work. I am actively in the “no pressure” route. Ever since my H told me how he feels about sex and touch (due to childhood sex abuse) I have consciously stopped ALL initiation of any kind. I could actually see the weight of that pressure lift from his shoulders and the anxiety he was carrying, never knowing if I was going to proposition him, leave his body. It’s been a great thing for him and since I care about his well-being I am glad for that, but for me it is difficult and it makes me lose hope in our marriage having a chance of ever becoming more than roommates again. Also, the longer I choose this route, the easier it seems to be for me to keep it up. That’s not to say my sexual desire in general is decreasing, just that it removes any unfulfilled expectations I used to have with HIM specifically. So I suppose in ways it alleviates some pressure on me, too. (But adds new pressures, e.g. “How long can I endure this?”)
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Post by rejected101 on Jan 13, 2018 10:37:22 GMT -5
...and I did it again. I suppose I need professional help. We received a package today (not unusual), and she asked what it might be (I wouldn’t know, she is the one ordering stuff), so I blurted out, “Awww... Did you order a toy for me?” Must Stop LOL! Unfortunately this type of sarcasm becomes a natural reaction to the resentment you feel after enough time has passed and enough rejections have occurred. I have also been guilty of these types of comments and if nothing else, if I am going to be made to feel uncomfortable about wanting a fricking love life with my wife, made to feel uncomfortable about trying to discuss the Issue (as if it’s a type of pressure), then she can feel uncomfortable from time to time about things I say or do. My favourite effort thus far which makes me chuckle to this day was when we watched 50 shades of grey (when it first came out) and half way through I blurted out “wouldn’t it be funny if you were Anastasia, mr grey would have to spank his own arse and whip the sofa”. I am still proud of that one!! She hated that comment.
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