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Post by shamwow on Nov 28, 2017 13:27:36 GMT -5
shamwow , perhaps my point wasn't clear... To an asexual, adding sex to the relationship is like changing one's diet in an unpleasant but necessary way. They might do it, but that doesn't mean they'll like it. The fact that she's incredulous to her boyfriend's refusal of this arrangement just underscores the fact that she doesn't grasp sex as anything more meaningful than an activity on the to-do list. And yes, I have plenty of female friends, but I definitely expect that the one with whom I'm sharing a bed, a name, and finances, I'm also having sex with. Oh, I think she grasps it quite well indeed. But I also think that it is a classic attempt at DARVO. She denies there is a problem (even though she's asexual, they should still be able to stay boyfriend / girlfriend). She reverses it (he is "just interested in sex" even after she has proposed a "reasonable" compromise). She plays herself as the victim (she is having to pay the price of being dumped). I guess the alternate is to take responsibility. I find it truly impossible to believe that she actually thinks it is unreasonable for her boyfriend to expect a loving, intimate, and sexual relationship. Every shred of our culture regarding relationships says that sex is part of the adult boyfriend / girlfriend relationship. I find it quite possible that she is trying to find a way to paint her boyfriend as a "bad guy" for dumping her when announced she was no longer interested in the defining aspect of the boyfriend / girlfriend relationship. You give her far more credit than I am willing to. Of course, I married someone who essentially decided she was asexual as soon as the ring went on her finger and lived that way for 20 years. Mine, however, didn't have the decency to inform me, though, and I had to figure this out on my own. So my thoughts may be somewhat less than charitable in this particular regard.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 28, 2017 13:53:55 GMT -5
It’s very difficult even impossible for asexuals to understand the needs of people with normal sexual feelings. It’s also difficult if not impossible for people with normal libidos to understand asexuals.
We have members here whose partners have told them they are asexuals but the refused are still trying to seduce their asexual partners.
So, I still think the presumably young woman who recognized her asexuality and told her boyfriend is far ahead in self understanding and honesty than most people.
Her boyfriend also demonstrated a lot of wisdom in ending the relationship. He could have done what some here attempted: acted like sex was unimportant to him or he could have decided on convincing his girlfriend that she was wrong in believing she is asexual.
His girlfriend’s wanting to continue the relationship is a normal response of a person whose partner broke the relationship off. No matter what the reason, dumped people usually want to renew the lost relationship.
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Post by shamwow on Nov 28, 2017 14:05:24 GMT -5
His girlfriend’s wanting to continue the relationship is a normal response of a person whose partner broke the relationship off. No matter what the reason, dumped people usually want to renew the lost relationship. I dunno. People get dumped for a variety of reasons. For most of those reasons, I totally agree. However, it seems anything except normal to expect your romantic relationship to continue when you've announced to your partner you are no longer interested in a hetrosexual relationship.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 28, 2017 14:13:40 GMT -5
“However, it seems anything except normal to expect your romantic relationship to continue when you've announced to your partner you are no longer interested in a hetrosexual relationship.”
Yet, there are plenty of people here who have done exactly that including remaining married to individuals they’ve never had sex with.
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Post by h on Nov 28, 2017 14:51:29 GMT -5
If we are to view asexuality like an orientation, the parallel seems pretty clear to me... if she had claimed to be lesbian (not bi) but agreed to monogamous hetero sex as a compromise, that's a recipe for a bad experience on both sides. For asexuals, I think it goes a layer deeper. At least in W's case, "they don't know what they don't know". They see sex as just an activity, like adding kale salad to your diet, which might be unpleasant but beneficial. They have no concept of the intimacy and bonding and emotional experience it is for a sexful person. So, of course, in their eyes why can't he be happy with a compromise? Respectfully, I disagree. There are many ways to make a salad. Adding kale is one way to prepare it, but adding or removing it would not be considered "odd". It is still a salad. A typical boyfriend / girlfriend relationship has the expectation of intimacy. Even if actual sex is restricted by religious teachings, it is expected that a boyfriend / girlfriend relationship has some element of sexual desire / tension. In a typical secular relationship, most people would assume that the boyfriend and girlfriend are intimate with each other on a regular basis. In fact, it is usually assumed that a boyfriend / girlfriend have MORE sex than if they were married. A non-sexual boyfriend / girlfriend relationship would be more like removing the LETTUCE from the salad and still calling it salad. There are, of course, friendships involving members of the opposite sex. These are platonic friendships and are defined by the fact that he isn't interested in her pussy and she isn't interested in his cock. For someone who is asexual, this is the appropriate type of relationship involving the opposite sex. Nothing wrong with it, and it can be quite satisfying to both parties. In fact, most people have many of these throughout their lives. But a platonic relationship is NOT a boyfriend / girlfriend relationship, and anyone old enough to have such a relationship sure as hell knows the difference. I find her incredulity that her boyfriend wants to break up because he wants sex to be, well, incredulous. The guy probably just likes lettuce in his salad. Is anyone going to make a tossed salad joke?
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Post by shamwow on Nov 28, 2017 15:30:05 GMT -5
Respectfully, I disagree. There are many ways to make a salad. Adding kale is one way to prepare it, but adding or removing it would not be considered "odd". It is still a salad. A typical boyfriend / girlfriend relationship has the expectation of intimacy. Even if actual sex is restricted by religious teachings, it is expected that a boyfriend / girlfriend relationship has some element of sexual desire / tension. In a typical secular relationship, most people would assume that the boyfriend and girlfriend are intimate with each other on a regular basis. In fact, it is usually assumed that a boyfriend / girlfriend have MORE sex than if they were married. A non-sexual boyfriend / girlfriend relationship would be more like removing the LETTUCE from the salad and still calling it salad. There are, of course, friendships involving members of the opposite sex. These are platonic friendships and are defined by the fact that he isn't interested in her pussy and she isn't interested in his cock. For someone who is asexual, this is the appropriate type of relationship involving the opposite sex. Nothing wrong with it, and it can be quite satisfying to both parties. In fact, most people have many of these throughout their lives. But a platonic relationship is NOT a boyfriend / girlfriend relationship, and anyone old enough to have such a relationship sure as hell knows the difference. I find her incredulity that her boyfriend wants to break up because he wants sex to be, well, incredulous. The guy probably just likes lettuce in his salad. Is anyone going to make a tossed salad joke? I dunno...but personally, I prefer syrup.
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 28, 2017 15:40:54 GMT -5
Don't go there, h. (Snicker)
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Post by h on Nov 28, 2017 16:34:02 GMT -5
Don't go there, h . (Snicker) I snickered too with all the salad talk...
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 28, 2017 17:43:28 GMT -5
Is anyone going to make a tossed salad joke? Lettuce refrain.
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Post by tirefire on Nov 28, 2017 17:50:43 GMT -5
“Assume she knew of her boyfriend's need for sex to connect, and her desire to keep him, do you think she will be honest with her NEXT boyfriend” She might have the good sense to search for a boyfriend who also is asexual. I’m sure it’s possible to do that online. I don't hate my ex-wife. I don't wish her misery and suffering. I hope that she finds somebody someday that will make her happy and she can make happy. That person will almost assuredly be asexual, have a low drive, or be incapable of a healthy loving sexual relationship. That guy sure as hell ain't me. This. You sound like you are in a good place.
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 28, 2017 18:03:22 GMT -5
You give her far more credit than I am willing to Fair enough. I agree that she could be equally manipulative vs clueless. Certainly, even if she were aware, it's in her interests to manipulate to gain the life she wants irrespective of his desires. Then again, if she were really that manipulative, she might have thought twice before openly declaring the end of sex. Maybe she's also a poor strategist. I come to the discussion with a different perspective because I live with the clueless variety of asexual, who just simply has no concept of the joy and unity that's possible in real intimacy. For W, the spigot didn't turn off after the wedding; rather, it never turned on like I expected it to when we moved in together after the wedding. W is also not as self-aware as this gal regarding her asexuality. Then again, maybe she's just a smarter strategist.
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Post by RexCorvus on Nov 28, 2017 18:21:15 GMT -5
… I will start by saying once again that God/Universe lead me here today again exactly when I needed it. Thank you! Eight years ago when I began my journey of “trying to fix it” I started researching the “WHY”. How could I ever “fix” our marriage issues if I couldn’t understand, or at least try to the best of my ability, my wife’s sexual hangups? I had never even heard of Asexuality, but as I started researching many paths lead back to either a medical issue or Asexuality. I found and joined the AVEN asexuality.org/ website and began reading posts and eventually posting questions to those of the Asexual Orientation. I had to step outside of myself and try to understand this form of sexual orientation, it felt so foreign to me. Firstly and most importantly is to realize that it is an orientation. This is no different than heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, monosexual, pansexual, polysexual, ambisexual, etc… As you can see there are a myriad of sexual orientations and ALL of these have levels (shades of gray) that are dynamically fluid. There is no BLACK & WHITE (he/she likes dick or not - he/she likes pussy or not) when it comes to any sexual orientation. Asexuals do not experience sexual attraction, but some experience romantic attraction. These asexuals get crushes and fall in love just like romantic sexuals do, except without the real desire for sex. Asexuals feel love as strongly as anyone else does; it simply isn't connected to sex for them. However, your partner may feel confused and alienated from you because they do not understand how important sex is for you and why you desire it. Some asexuals (though not all) have sex drives, but see them as a private thing that should be taken care of alone, like going to the bathroom. While some asexuals dislike any physical contact at all. Some like to cuddle, but nothing more. Some enjoy any number of activities that most people see as sexual, and some are all right with having sex provided that they trust the other person enough. Understanding these things begins to open your mind to how incredibly confusing these feelings and thoughts can be. I am now eight years past this “trying to fix it” phase and have fallen madly in love with a very passionate sexual woman. One of the things that we remark upon is that “we can be ourselves”. We are sexually playful in our texts, in our conversations, in our photos, in everyday interactions we can share this side of ourselves with each other. Before, with our spouses, we felt ashamed, guilty, dirty, etc… for thinking or feeling sexual things. We had been conditioned like Pavlov’s dog to stifle our sexual orientation so as to maintain tranquility in our marriages but at the detriment of our well being. This morning I reflected upon the conversations (The Talks) that I have had with my wife over the years about our intimacy issues. I heard my wife in this Asexual’s column post. It’s taken me a long time to accept this about myself, and that it doesn’t mean I’m broken in any wayMy wife is unable to “label” herself as asexual, and has told me several times that she “isn’t broken”. In fact she gets very upset and angry if the suggestion is made that she may be asexual. Even though my own 18 year old son asked me the other day, if I thought that mom was asexual. So why is this so hard to accept? It is the new Gay. How hard was it for men and women to come out of the closet as homosexuals or transsexuals? How hard is it still?! But this is even “weirder” in a society that puts so much emphasis on “SEX”. There was only ONE time in my 20+ year marriage that my wife opened up about her true feelings about it all and that was 18 years ago shortly after my first son was born. If I had known about asexuality then I would have immediately noticed its characteristics. Let me share a few excerpts from the letter she wrote to me: GUILT I feel terrible about how the intimate part of our lives is being ignored. I feel like I am at fault. I feel next to no desire for it. I want it to be normal I don’t ever want you to feel like this isn’t enough. It makes me feel like I have failed as wife and a woman. I am sorry. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it better, but I can’t You have a right to be upset EMBARRASMENTYou need to understand this is really embarrassing for me. I haven’t told any of my friends, I am too embarrassed I mentioned it once during checkup and they just looked at me like I was weird or defective I was humiliated ROMANTIC ATTRACTION It isn’t that I don’t want to be with you our near you. I love you and have always loved you. I miss just being close to you, spending time with you, holding hands, talking in bed… I want more affection and cuddling without the obligation of sex. CONFLICTING FEELINGS It was new and exciting, and I felt so special around you (why they were open to sex to start) I know I am not the only person who feels this way I feel like every time you hug and kiss me you are looking for sex Because I have no desire for it, it feels like an obligation or a job that I put off as long as possible I don’t want to feel that way. I want to enjoy being with you. SADDNESS The whole thing makes me feel lonely and like a failure I’ve told him that even though I don’t want to have sex, it doesn’t bother me to have it sometimes if it makes him happy.When we tried to communicate and tried to find compromise my wife would always get hung up on the number of times. She would say that she “only wants to have sex once a month”, but she could never live up to that unless she was trying to conceive. Then it was only the days she was ovulating. Was this her purposely trapping me? No, it was her romantic side. She wanted a family, children, white picket fence like everyone else. Sex to her is literally a means to an end. But how did this make me feel as a sexual person? Unsatisfied, unloved, unwanted, undesirable, untouchable… We are simply incompatible. It also hurts to find out that my boyfriend, who said he loved me, really just liked sexNow that we are in the process of divorcing over this, she has told me “all you want is a piece of ass”. I’m sure she hears other women say the same thing about other men, but has no concept of how understanding, patient and compassionate I have been. My 18 year old son thanked me for staying this long in a sexless marriage for him and his siblings. He told me that he couldn’t have done it and doesn’t know how I have for so many years. INCOMPATABILITYMaybe reading these helps to wash away some of the anger as to HOW THEY COULD DO THIS! It is probably what kept me hanging on for as long as I did. It gave me hope that we could communicate and find a compromise, but I now know how truly incompatible we are.
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Post by Dan on Nov 28, 2017 22:42:39 GMT -5
That is one nice thing about the internet. It is easier to find people with specific quirks than it was back when I was dating. I hope that is how it plays out. We'll know that "asexuality" is accepted/normalized when there is an app to help asexual meet up and... erm... not screw. Inspiration! I have a name for the app/service: "Blandr"Wait, wait, I already have a problem with the concept: If on Tinder "swiping right" means "I'm sexually attracted to this person", then on Blandr, does "swiping right" mean the same? In which case, is it bad? Oh boy... better work this out before I go for the mezzanine round of venture funding....
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 28, 2017 23:43:48 GMT -5
Thank you RexCorvus for a great post. that hits home in so many ways!
It makes me want to share my experience at my Divorce Recovery class. (I hope it's relevant) We did a little game tonight. We asked each other open questions about sex. We all wrote our questions on paper, labeled for the men or the women. Everyone got to answer them.
One of my questions was ," how do you feel about a one night stand? What does that do for you?" Well...oddly enough, the men where against it. They like intimacy and sex. They did not feel right about sex only. They needed intimacy, trust, and a connection first.(could very well be from fears of love-bombing and re-set)
While the women where okay with it. Like they where capable of it, and it was no big deal. Almost like it had been programmed into them that it was a duty. They also talked about faking an orgasm. They acted like they could just "flip a switch" and it was no big deal.
While the men sounded like, your not supposed to treat a woman that way, you have been programmed that it is wrong to have a sex only mentality, a woman isn't just a piece of meat.
There is probably a lot to be said about each persons circumstances that lead to there divorce, but it sure seemed the opposite of "sex is all men ever think about". And the stereo typing of men and woman in today's society. (we are all in our 40's and 50's)
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 29, 2017 0:07:12 GMT -5
“For some guys approaching a woman sexually -after weeks/months of courting/dating- is the highest compliment they can bestow upon a woman! They are making themselves vulnerable towards rejection by being honest and giving, hoping to receive in return.” Mature adult women who enjoy sex probably wouldn’t hang around with a guy who took months to make a pass. A guy who thought he was complementing me by waiting so long wouldn’t be the guy for me. I think sex is normal and natural if one is an adult in a romance. I also wouldn’t want to get stuck with a low libido man or a guy who thought that women who enjoy sex are unworthy of his love. I agree with your point. Just as a side note; my dating experience is next to zero. So , all I can do is imagine how often two divorced adults get to see/date each other. Just thinking about two of everything going on, jobs, households, kids, school,doctors, etc..... Not like when we were in H.S. and got to see our date every day at history class. It may take more than a month to get together 3 or more times. personally....I want to have all my cards on the table by the third date. At least a lot of open, honest communication about what's to be expected and that an agreement is being reached!
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