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Post by M2G on Nov 27, 2017 16:00:28 GMT -5
As you guys may have put together by my posts, my mood and resolve has been jumping around like a superball in a paint shaker. That was six weeks of me trying to get up the courage to force an answer as to why I’d been cast out of the bedroom. Well now – here it is.
So it comes to pass that my relationship was executed by a single phrase: “It turns me off when you say ow.”
No sex now, no sex later, no working on it, no talking about it, no sex until the end of the world. “You did it to yourself,” I was told.
At first, I denied saying it, because of the context she used it was totally unfamiliar – IE: “it turns me off when you say ow “so shut up and suck it up while I get off on you.” ..So I gave her that one because she’s not crazy and doesn’t make things up – but it just felt WRONG.
So I shuffle off to the shower, my head kinda swimming, utterly confused and utterly devastated and I can’t find the words to really explain.
Somewhere in there, I remembered. It was messed up. I denied saying it, again, because of context. It really went more like this: “that’s OK” – it turns me off when you say ow “because I don’t want to continue if you’re having pain.”
She will never believe me, I thought, but I went in with it anyway and, because I don’t lie and make things up, she believed me (I think).
Here’s the ripper: She NEVER asked me what I meant by that, just chose to think the worst of me, and we lost 15 years BAM.
Why? A misuse of boundaries in marriage. She threw up a boundary against intimacy of any kind. HOWEVER, she did not just cut off sex – she weaned us off of sex. Slowly moved out the frequency of our intimacy. When things finally ground to a full halt about 6 years ago I had absolutely no idea why. It’s kind of like whipping a dog today for pissing on the rug last week – the dog has no fucking clue, just knows it getting beaten. My life in a nutshell.
A real boundary for a reasonable spouse in the situation would be (maybe): “What the fuck do you mean by that? What am I, just a thing you can fuck?” But alas no, she thought the worst of me, decided on a course of action, and killed our marriage.
I will give her the fact that I was a lot more of a negative person back then – but to do such a thing without a discussion?
Even now, she’s only tentatively thinking that we may work our way back to intimacy. Really though, I’m not sure I want to bother. My resentment is running very high, my love is burning very low. Probably I won’t think of her anymore except as a friend and roommate.
Oh yeah – no apology either – just complaints that I violated her boundaries by pushing the boundaries THAT SHE NEVER TOLD ME WERE THERE.
Gimme shelter.
Fucking Kill me Now.
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Post by shamwow on Nov 27, 2017 17:48:31 GMT -5
I've often wondered which is worse. To be weaned off of sex as you were or to have it hit a brick wall as soon as rings were exchanged (my scenario). Perhaps they are just two sides of the same shitty coin?
In either case, one day you wake up and realize that even if she wanted to have sex you're not sure you're interested. The next step is that you start to dread situations where intimacy would be expected for "normal" couples (i.e. birthdays, valentines day, anniversaries, etc...). Eventually, you realize you have no need to fear amorous advances on those milestones or any other milestones. Eventually? The resentment may build to the point where you will say "I don't love this person anymore and cannot imagine growing old with her/him".
I know that sounds like a downer, but it does have the positive benefit of completely clarifying where you are at and where you can expect to go.
Only at that point can you stop beating the dead horse.
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 27, 2017 17:57:18 GMT -5
You've been plenty patient about this. Yeah, it is a real FML moment, but, instead of saying "just kill me now," it is time to identify and bury what is really dead.
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Post by M2G on Nov 27, 2017 23:47:19 GMT -5
I've often wondered which is worse. To be weaned off of sex as you were or to have it hit a brick wall as soon as rings were exchanged (my scenario). Perhaps they are just two sides of the same shitty coin? Yes, indeed a shitty coin. Is it better to get it in the open then suffer for years, or to suffer for years then find out why? But is it the real "why?" Time will tell I guess. Certainly there was more leading to that pass, than just a giant misunderstanding - that was just the capstone. I'll tell you this much: from the misery suffered to the explosion of pain on Saturday, I feel now like a giant weight's been lifted, albeit not removed. My coping strategies are actually working now: when I start to sink into the dark holes of the past I can break it with a walk outside or trying to count backwards by 7's. I can break the mood. I couldn't last week. W doing well also. We had another good evening, talking like we used to when things were good. That's good enough for me right now. We're both working out our problems. I'm not ready to leave, really don't want to leave, not ready to try with a new partner, and damn sure not ready for the chaos of a breakup. Still not going to bed at the same time. We kissed goodnight though, and it was good. Also she made a comment yesterday: "I can't be your therapist because its not ethical to sleep with patients." So dead, I don't think so, and for the time being this is where I'm going to stay. When we're both closer to "normal" somewhere down the road, we'll see.
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Post by lifeinwoodinville on Nov 27, 2017 23:51:03 GMT -5
I moved out of the master bedroom on my own three years ago. I did it because I got tired of being rejected with statements like "Are you kidding me!?" and "NO!", being given a cold shoulder, and letting the kids sleep in our bed, between us. About a month ago I tried to have a discussion about our sleeping arrangements and asked her how she felt about me sleeping in the guest room, I got an answer. "YOU left the bedroom! NOT me! I did not give up! I did not leave! This is all on YOU!" She couldn't own up to anything.
She went on to tell me that it was up to me to set things straight, and that I could come back at any time. I could also stick my head in the oven and put it on the cleaning cycle at any time too but I'm not jumping to do that either.
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Post by M2G on Nov 28, 2017 5:34:49 GMT -5
You've been plenty patient about this. Yeah, it is a real FML moment, but, instead of saying "just kill me now," it is time to identify and bury what is really dead. I gotta bury the past if I want to escape going nuts thinking abut how much time was lost that *may* not have had to happen. Right now I have nowhere else I want to be though. Right now we're both working through our childhood issues, and W is trying to confront sexual abuse at the hands of her adoptive father . Honestly, if I didn't come from an abusive environment myself I would be inclined to not believe her, IE: how come an incident from 15-20 years ago is just poking it's head out of the sand now? Well gee, maybe it didn't just start now - look at the timeline of our SM. Fits like a glove. Sometimes we can be so blind to stuff we don't want to see. Anyway she has a lot of trust issues. Top of that, we get to talking about it and it amazing, in a sad and tragic kind of way, how much trauma that keeps coming out about both of us. My goals now are pretty simple. To keep myself from doing stupid shit every time I get angry, and to try to hold hands with my W for 5 minutes. So far we got about 10 seconds.
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Post by M2G on Nov 28, 2017 5:50:20 GMT -5
I moved out of the master bedroom on my own three years ago. I did it because I got tired of being rejected with statements like "Are you kidding me!?" and "NO!", being given a cold shoulder, and letting the kids sleep in our bed, between us. About a month ago I tried to have a discussion about our sleeping arrangements and asked her how she felt about me sleeping in the guest room, I got an answer. "YOU left the bedroom! NOT me! I did not give up! I did not leave! This is all on YOU!" She couldn't own up to anything. She went on to tell me that it was up to me to set things straight, and that I could come back at any time. I could also stick my head in the oven and put it on the cleaning cycle at any time too but I'm not jumping to do that either. There's a giant DARVO. I notice how she took the opportunity to use what you did, to save your sanity, and convert it into the SM that she wanted. Is she a vampire, that can't fuck anywhere but the one bed? Even if in separate rooms, one could visit the other for a lovemaking session without someone turning to ashes? All why chasing though, and we can't make our W's want to fuck us. On my side I have my first "why" at this point and it was made abundantly clear that this was the one single issue. Not planning sit around for more if they are just excuses, but I am willing to do whatever it takes for her to help her heal from the abuse. Have you ever invited your W to have sex with you in your room?
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 28, 2017 6:49:14 GMT -5
M2G, you are a good and patient man. I don't know if you can fix what is wrong with her, but at least you can say that you helped her make some progress. My wife went through a counseling program our first year of marriage. I was very patient with that when I should have been filing for an annulment. It took a bit over a year before we consummated the marriage. If she came up with a reason at this point, after all this time, I would be just as all out of proverbial fucks to give as she was out of real ones for all that time.
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Post by shamwow on Nov 28, 2017 7:22:14 GMT -5
I've often wondered which is worse. To be weaned off of sex as you were or to have it hit a brick wall as soon as rings were exchanged (my scenario). Perhaps they are just two sides of the same shitty coin? Yes, indeed a shitty coin. Is it better to get it in the open then suffer for years, or to suffer for years then find out why? But is it the real "why?" Time will tell I guess. Certainly there was more leading to that pass, than just a giant misunderstanding - that was just the capstone. I'll tell you this much: from the misery suffered to the explosion of pain on Saturday, I feel now like a giant weight's been lifted, albeit not removed. My coping strategies are actually working now: when I start to sink into the dark holes of the past I can break it with a walk outside or trying to count backwards by 7's. I can break the mood. I couldn't last week. W doing well also. We had another good evening, talking like we used to when things were good. That's good enough for me right now. We're both working out our problems. I'm not ready to leave, really don't want to leave, not ready to try with a new partner, and damn sure not ready for the chaos of a breakup. Still not going to bed at the same time. We kissed goodnight though, and it was good. Also she made a comment yesterday: "I can't be your therapist because its not ethical to sleep with patients." So dead, I don't think so, and for the time being this is where I'm going to stay. When we're both closer to "normal" somewhere down the road, we'll see. Methinks your wife is misunderstanding who exactly needs therapy... Neither of you can "fix" or "heal" the other. You can only work on yourselves and as baza always says, get your shit together.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 28, 2017 8:02:22 GMT -5
“Also she made a comment yesterday: "I can't be your therapist because its not ethical to sleep with patients."”
Was she joking? If not, is she really stupid. She is your wife. Wives sleep with and have sex with their husbands. Talking to a spouse about personal problems does not turn one into their therapist. If she doesn’t understand that, she is too stupid to be married to you.
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Post by M2G on Nov 28, 2017 16:17:30 GMT -5
“Also she made a comment yesterday: "I can't be your therapist because its not ethical to sleep with patients."” Was she joking? If not, is she really stupid. She is your wife. Wives sleep with and have sex with their husbands. Talking to a spouse about personal problems does not turn one into their therapist. If she doesn’t understand that, she is too stupid to be married to you. Thanks for that, but I assure you that she was joking, and at the same time promising to work on our mutual problems, sex specifically. After 37 years of knowing her, I can smell bullshit from any distance. Not a whiff of that, this time. Top of that, she added a smile physical contact, hand on my knee. That was huge, for her. If she was blowing me off, she’d simply use medium chill.
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Post by baza on Nov 29, 2017 0:41:27 GMT -5
"But is it the real "why?" - you ask Brother M2G . That's the essential beauty of a refusers "why". It doesn't have to be honest or credible. It doesn't have to be the truth. It doesn't have to have solid evidence behind the claim. When it comes to "whys", any one will do. Any "why" is as good as another. Whether it has any basis in fact, is nothing more than a side bar. The aim is (in the short term) to avoid the looming immediate prospect of sex.(eg - "I have a headache") Longer term, it is to keep you chasing shadows trying to establish real - imagined - concocted - whys, and get your focus off what a shithole you are in. And, it worked Brother M2G . The "Ow" *why* has got you off chasing shadows. Those are the rationale behind "whys". To muddy the waters, not to resolve anything.
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Post by M2G on Nov 29, 2017 5:26:25 GMT -5
M2G , you are a good and patient man. I don't know if you can fix what is wrong with her, but at least you can say that you helped her make some progress. My wife went through a counseling program our first year of marriage. I was very patient with that when I should have been filing for an annulment. It took a bit over a year before we consummated the marriage. If she came up with a reason at this point, after all this time, I would be just as all out of proverbial fucks to give as she was out of real ones for all that time. TY - to be honest I'm ready to leave, I just don't want to be the one who leaves. Sometimes I wish I could fall out of love with her, but it just isn't happening.
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Post by M2G on Nov 29, 2017 5:36:40 GMT -5
Methinks your wife is misunderstanding who exactly needs therapy... Neither of you can "fix" or "heal" the other. You can only work on yourselves and as baza always says, get your shit together. I agree. Been working on myself for a while now, making slow & steady progress. W picked up a great book for "both of us" however I see no evidence of anyone else but me, reading it. That's OK - it's not like you can force someone to read anyway (picturing the scene from Clockwork Orange...)
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Post by M2G on Nov 29, 2017 5:48:38 GMT -5
"But is it the real "why?" - you ask Brother M2G . That's the essential beauty of a refusers "why". It doesn't have to be honest or credible. It doesn't have to be the truth. It doesn't have to have solid evidence behind the claim. When it comes to "whys", any one will do. Any "why" is as good as another. Whether it has any basis in fact, is nothing more than a side bar. The aim is (in the short term) to avoid the looming immediate prospect of sex.(eg - "I have a headache") Longer term, it is to keep you chasing shadows trying to establish real - imagined - concocted - whys, and get your focus off what a shithole you are in. And, it worked Brother M2G . The "Ow" *why* has got you off chasing shadows. Those are the rationale behind "whys". To muddy the waters, not to resolve anything. You're right, and really I'm not interested in whys, I'm interested in progress - like holding hands or more then 3-4 seconds would be nice. I'll be there to support her, but I won't be a doormat. Though I must admit that, of late, she's not been treating me that way I don't think she will recover though, so long as she maintains that everything is my fault. We have both been abysmal to each other, over the years. She has a tendency though, to remember only what's I've done & said, while what she's done and said remain blissfully "beyond the veil" so to speak.
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