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Post by M2G on Nov 16, 2017 12:18:54 GMT -5
The trouble when they throw the light switch and suddenly they're sexual again... 1) Seriously, you could have done this all along but you chose to let me writhe in agony instead? 2) How long before you just decide to turn it off again? I am absolutely struggling with #1 but I am also really struggling with 3) My desire for you is kind of dead. I hear that - if you're staying and want to use the time to work on the problems, or work on yourselves, that's far better then living in hostility for all that time. In the same boat here. My wife says she's been working on herself and waiting for me, and I must admit lots of improvement on her end. The work on one's self (and the relationship) is good work to put in, especially with such a long timetable. I think of it this way: even if we fail, we will be better prepared for any future relationship. You get weird touches, I get none - not sure if one is any better then the other - but with talking, and civility, things may at least become "pleasant except for.." Taking it very slow I think is a good idea - I think it's best to wait until you really want him again, if ever. I'm in the same spot - I love my W, but a bit turned off (and admittedly scared) of what sexual catastrophe might ensue, if one or both of two partners hold their noses and dive in when they are just not into it.
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 16, 2017 12:43:47 GMT -5
I am absolutely struggling with #1 but I am also really struggling with 3) My desire for you is kind of dead. I hear that - if you're staying and want to use the time to work on the problems, or work on yourselves, that's far better then living in hostility for all that time. In the same boat here. My wife says she's been working on herself and waiting for me, and I must admit lots of improvement on her end. The work on one's self (and the relationship) is good work to put in, especially with such a long timetable. I think of it this way: even if we fail, we will be better prepared for any future relationship. You get weird touches, I get none - not sure if one is any better then the other - but with talking, and civility, things may at least become "pleasant except for.." Taking it very slow I think is a good idea - I think it's best to wait until you really want him again, if ever. I'm in the same spot - I love my W, but a bit turned off (and admittedly scared) of what sexual catastrophe might ensue, if one or both of two partners hold their noses and dive in when they are just not into it. That makes three of us, but, in my case, there is no progress. I did put a lot of pressure on my W. It started accidentally and innocently, but my wife thought I might be having an affair, begged me with tears in her eyes not to give up on her, and, for a couple weeks was actually trying. I would not have considered giving up at that point, but, as soon as the threat was gone, so was the new intimacy. After that, I realized the only way to be intimate with her was if there was a perceived threat. After that, I realized that I did not want to have sex with someone that only sees it as a duty. I want passion. I want to be desired. These are things that someone under pressure can fake for a while, but eventually it shows itself for what it is. This is where I gave up. With kids, I still have a family commitment, but this was the point where I could seek out another partner without remorse. I get that whole "my desire is kind of dead" thing, because mine is, too. I think I look pretty hypocritical, having encouraged workingonit to hang in there, while declaring the expiration date of my own marriage.
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Post by M2G on Nov 16, 2017 12:51:14 GMT -5
"After that, I realized the only way to be intimate with her was if there was a perceived threat.
After that, I realized that I did not want to have sex with someone that only sees it as a duty. I want passion. I want to be desired. These are things that someone under pressure can fake for a while, but eventually it shows itself for what it is. This is where I gave up. "
Yeah that sucks and sorry to hear it - and I feel the same way. Duty sex, reset sex - not my cuppa. If at some point I do outsource, for sure I would keep it private: not going use good sex to coerce some bad sex out of my W. Nonsensical. Outsourcing is one thing, but to me, using it as a weapon is just not cool.
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 16, 2017 13:12:05 GMT -5
I pushed for sex within the marriage. I pushed for permission to have sex outside marriage. I asked her to come to munches and kinky events. Finally she declared that I needed to stop asking her to do things she did not want to do. Communication stopped at that point. I agree, it was not cool, but I was past pissed at that point and not thinking clearly.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 16, 2017 13:16:22 GMT -5
“I pushed for sex within the marriage. I pushed for permission to have sex outside marriage. I asked her to come to munches and kinky events. Finally she declared that I needed to stop asking her to do things she did not want to do. Communication stopped at that point. I agree, it was not cool, but I was past pissed at that point and not thinking clearly.”
But she was insisting on your being monogamous and celibate.....
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 16, 2017 13:18:30 GMT -5
^^^^^ Exactly.
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Post by M2G on Nov 16, 2017 13:44:52 GMT -5
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Post by workingonit on Nov 16, 2017 21:51:14 GMT -5
ironhamster I dont think you are hypocritical at all. I feel like you jn your 'Im done' thread but you are further ahead. I think you did try. I think your body let you know that you were past the point of fixing this. I thought I was there but he is really working now so I am willing to have some patience. And james IDK. I meant that I was really done but I also meant that my timeline was 4 more years. I have been hinest with him ans myself. I am convinced by his effort to open myself to one more try. I was ready to commit to living as roomates. I was not trying to get him to act as I was convinced that was impossible. I am actually surprised by what is happening now. And I do feel that no matter what happens in the long run this work is real and deep and will help each of us live the best lives we can. Worth the effort.
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 16, 2017 23:10:47 GMT -5
Consider this paradox...
We are miserable because our spouse compels us to be non-sexual when we are very sexual by nature. It eats at our soul. They know about the gap, and impose their desire. We often bear it in silence, but one day we reach a breaking point.
Now put the shoe on the other foot.
Your spouse feels forced to become something that, at their core, they are not. They comply to save the marriage, but they are supremely unhappy about it. They bury their emotions to keep the façade alive, but one day in the future they will snap, say "screw it", and revert to their true self with no concern for the ramifications.
In effect, will you have done to them what they've been doing to you? And in the end, you will have lost years of your life and be in a much more difficult position to start a new life with someone else.
Rather than forcing a square peg into a round hole, is it better to acknowledge the reality, bite the bullet, and wish each other a better future? At least on paper it sounds obvious.
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Post by Dan on Nov 22, 2017 9:39:21 GMT -5
Now suddenly he is completely obsessed with fixing our marriage. ... ... . BUT I am finding his attention and his declarations of love annoying as all hell! They feel insincere after so long without them. I don't know what is wrong with me but I find it irritating. I'm not reciprocating and that makes me feel like I'm being a b****. He will even say to me "I don't feel like you are all in." I respond that is because I am not. I'm angry and hurt. He is acting like we did like he did when we dated. But it just highlights how long it's been since he's paid any real attention to me. ... Am I right to feel this way? Or just a righteous bitch who asks and asks and doesn't want what she ask for? I'm in a pretty similar situation. I'm polite to my wife, but that is about it. Zero interest in intimacy with her. I'm enjoying the last two years of my daughter living with us -- yes, I'm on the so-called "college plan". After that, I can't see sticking with the marriage. I would articulate my state as " I have utterly lost all trust in her". I don't trust that her efforts are genuine. Well, I do think she genuinely wants the marriage to last, but I don't think her mild warming to intimacy is genuine; I don't think she really cares whether or not there is physical intimacy in the marriage. I don't trust her that she really understands how important it is to me. I don't trust that she can keep up this level of interest if I returned to the level of seeking intimacy I was interested in 10 years ago. I don't trust that she'll ever really be the physically intimate, emotionally intimate, and spiritually intimate partner I want, need, and believe I can be and can have. Set aside the sexless or low-sex marriage for a moment. Consider a sexful marriage where there has been infidelity. Can the "betrayed spouse" ever forgive the "wandering spouse"? (Terms used in online infidelity discussions, often abbreviated BS and WS.) Well, it all depends on the couple and the situation and their shared goals. You can imagine cases where the WS stops the extra-marital activities, makes amends, and the BS forgives... and healing happens. But you can hardly fault a betrayed spouse who can't get over it... and the marriage ends. Too much hurt. No real way to repair the damage. NO MEANINGFUL WAY TO RESTORE THE TRUST.I identify with THAT level of "loss of trust". I just don't trust she'll ever be the partner I want and feel I deserve. (I'm not saying she has been unfaithful... I'm saying I think I have the same level of loss of trust.) Here's one way I know: if I was offered the chance to change any handful of things about my wife to make her a "better wife for me" -- you know, like a genie's three magical wishes (pretty much anything goes) -- I think I'd pass. There was a time that if I could "fix her", I would have. Now: it is just too late. No trust.
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Post by Dan on Nov 22, 2017 9:59:42 GMT -5
Egads -- as I read of your recent update, the more it sounds like we ( workingonit ) are on an almost identical trajectory. Here is my caution... follow this set of mental leaps: I find that I tell myself "if we mend fences before my daughter leaves for college, I'll stay". So I'm being fair right? Giving it one last shot. ... But since at this point in my heart of hearts I really can't conceive of ever REALLY rekindling the spark, I'm kind of willfully deluding myself. ... Which means I'm deluding her, too... after all, if it is as good as over, why don't I just tell her. Honorably let her decide if staying in a husk of a marriage is worth it to her? ... Well, I'm not doing that because I don't want to blow up the household, and ruin the last two years I get to live with and raise my kid. ... So, apparently, I'm being selfish. WHAT A MIND-FUCK!!!! She's not fucking me, and I'm the selfish one??? WTF!!! Worse still: the mind-fuck is entirely self-inflicted. OK, back to the caution: Sometimes I think I'm doing actual damage to my psyche by putting myself through this.The thing is: any other path seems like I'd do more damage to self and family. So apparently I'm following what seems like the "path of least destruction". What a sad, sad state of affairs that deciding the next steps in my marriage (and their timing) come down to that: "least destruction".
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Post by james on Nov 22, 2017 12:39:53 GMT -5
Dan, these are the exact same thoughts that I keep having. Thanks for articulating.
Maybe you could argue that you are doing it for the sake of your daughter, though, not yourself. I mean, if I was just thinking about myself, I would walk out tomorrow without a backward look. I think it's more selfless than selfish (arguably).
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Post by Dan on Nov 22, 2017 13:05:50 GMT -5
Dan, these are the exact same thoughts that I keep having. Thanks for articulating. Maybe you could argue that you are doing it for the sake of your daughter, though, not yourself. I mean, if I was just thinking about myself, I would walk out tomorrow without a backward look. I think it's more selfless than selfish (arguably). Thanks for the thought! It is true that I feel "sticking with it" is best for my daughter -- and my sons (older than my daughter, but not fully "launched"). But I've realized that I'm not doing it SOLELY for them. I'm doing it for me, too. Yes, I could still "be a dad" if I started a divorce and divided the household tomorrow. But I know: 1) I can be a BETTER dad if I'm under the same roof, 2) being the best possible dad I can be is something I want to do for them, 3) being the best possible dad I can be is something I want to do for me. I believe that the damage I'm inflicting on myself is more than compensated by the above three gains. It is the way I've come to terms with my SM. This is actually an empowering realization/decision. I'm much less SAD about my SM, since I now feel "I'm making the decision to stay.... for a while longer."
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Post by workingonit on Nov 22, 2017 13:39:52 GMT -5
@dan I am so sorry you are in this situation but it is a little comforting to have someone who gets it.
It is a mind fuck for sure. I find myself wishing my h would agree with me. I think we could live perfectly well together as co parents and roomates. But he is...not there.
To be honest it was not until he started trying that I fully realized how much I was not open to intimacy anymore with him. Now I just feel like there is no way to rekindle the spark. And yet I am still here mostly because the thought of blowing up my family and hurting my children is not acceptable to me. My kids are 14 and 16 and my 14 yo is homeschooled - requiring two parents as we are both busy with other things as well. That son also has struggles with depression and mood regulation that make it more challenging to consider breaking up my home until he is older.
But now I'm forced to go through this facade of trying to fix something that I truly do not believe is fixable. In some ways this is worse than before he was trying. Of course still no sex yet so that may put a stop to the whole charade - if we are magically compatible I will possibly be more open to making the marriage work. But if it is bad I will not pretend.
Ugh.
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Post by Dan on Nov 22, 2017 14:28:04 GMT -5
I'm so, so with you. To be honest it was not until he started trying that I fully realized how much I was not open to intimacy anymore with him. Now I just feel like there is no way to rekindle the spark. I hit that same wall upon her last "try". (About two years ago.) I've successfully avoided/deflected her infrequent and feeble intimate advances since then. What a change of events! Ten years ago I would have jumped for joy if she jumped my bones. Now even the idea evokes a cringe. But now I'm forced to go through this facade of trying to fix something that I truly do not believe is fixable. Let me split that: it IS a façade. But I proposed this: it is not forced. The ball is in your court for YOU to decide what YOU do next. -- Don't tell him, and keep up the façade for the sake of the family. -- Tell him your ACTUAL state of your heart... maybe he'll agree to the façade for public consumption... but maybe it will make things worse. -- Just decide to leave now. I'm not proposing which is best for you. I'm proposing that you may get some relief from a) thinking about these options, b) determining if there are any other options, c) make a conscious choice is the "best"... or at least "least bad". Owing that choice is what has gotten me up out of "sorry for myself", and is making my remaining time here livable. I actually have more respect for myself.
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