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Post by M2G on Nov 5, 2017 7:10:52 GMT -5
In my opinion, it is an interesting question, more if someone is still in their marriage, trying to work on it. For me, we are in therapy now and this is some of the first stuff he is having us work on. What are the ways we were taught about sex? Both the actual sex messaging from parents and the ways they represented sex to us. For my h, his father cheated on his mother and there was tons of pain, fighting, etc. His father was really emotionally abusive and always had lots of girlfriends and women around. His mother, on the other hand, who represented the solid parent with whom he lived 98% of the time, became very asexual and overweight. She never again dated and became very obese. She never talked to him about sex or encouraged him. She worked on herself emotionally and spiritually and modeled that for him however he developed the sense that sex and intimacy are really unsafe. Ironically, my h was really thin when we got married. Within the first year he started putting on weight. He is now quite overweight and quite asexual. The problem is it is really NOT his nature to be asexual. He masturbates (at least several times weekly that I know of) and reports he is very sexually frustrated. It may be all academic. I don't see how you really undo your nature or nurture without a shit load of work- and I am not convinced he is up for that work or I am up for living with a half assed approach to intimacy. I also don't see how we get that pattern of him shutting down around intimacy out of our marriage after 17 years. For now, though, I am in it and we are working. Even if this therapy just gives us a greater knowledge of ourselves I think it is a worthwhile endeavor. I do not, however, believe it will result in actual sex. I think it's very important that one maintains one's self in a healthy way. It's unfair to one's partner, and unrealistic to let one's self go physically and still expect to inspire the same level or desire. I'm guilty of that. Early in our marriage I got up to 280 lbs. Luckily I didn't crush her to death. Once I started working out I got down to 178 and things improved drastically both in the bedroom as well as everyday life. Right now about the same weight, but % body fat needs attention and I'm actively working on that, for my own good (not thinking it's going to do anything for the SM condition at this point). Parent's views on sex? My step-terrorizer thought all women were pigs. That was his favorite word for women and he would repeat it frequently. If he could have kept my mother in a burka, he would have. I remember one time my mom got a perm & she looked amazing - he all but pushed her back out the door screaming at her to go back and have it put back the way it was. My Wife's parents: basically exchanging yelling and screaming as a substitute for intimacy and when they did "get going" all that was heard was her mom telling her dad to stop or hurry up because it hurt. My wife describes their marriage as a 60 year screaming match. So - true to all the psych books I've been reading (averaging 1 - 2 a week now and listening to each at least two times) our response was typical of children raised by Narcissistic and Borderline parents. We waited 3 months to have sex but then it was a hyper-sex clash of the loins: any time, any place, any risk and as frequently as possible. Imagine the STD's we may have contracted had we not been together and (mostly) monogamous. Lack of nurturing. Lots of "naturing" - being raised by wolves My exercise today: to finish the apology letter to my Wife that I've been crafting over the last couple of weeks. This was highly recommended in my reading and will not be posted anywhere. 'Tis quite brutal. She doesn't have to accept it but I hope she does, even if conditionally. I also hope to get one in return but that's not part of the deal either. Will let you guys know how it goes - with my shield, or on it. PS: I think I enjoyed the risky sex most of all.
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Post by TMD on Nov 5, 2017 19:09:55 GMT -5
Whether we consciously choose do this it is up to us. Something northstarmom said about children not having much choice, but adults do, and then your comment, shamwow, reminded me of a friend who once said, “if you make a choice that doesn’t work for you, then you can make a new choice.” This is something I teach my girls. Choice is sometimes hard because the end result matters so much. And it can be scary to think of what could go wrong if it’s not the right choice. EXCEPT, the knowledge that a new choice can be made is rather powerful. My point? I’m getting to it. ;-) I married a man to whom I am not physically attracted to. I knew that from the beginning, except I couldn’t reconcile that fact with the fact that I was very attracted to who he is as a person. He’s intelligent and gentle and very kind. Those qualities seemed more important. And I believe, because I was raised in a highly conservative Christian home, that I was making the right choice. We struggled with intimacy from the outset, and for so long I believed that I was The Refuser. And in some circumstances, I was. However, I have come to learn, that he was secretly and deeply addicted to porn. I didn’t want to believe that the porn mags that were stacked in his room at the frat house were his. His brothers teased me about this and I thought they put them there. Time revealed the truth. And so, I have also learned that he didn’t know how to relate to me as a human being, and not simply an object, when it came to intimacy. So was it nurture or nature that held me in this marriage? My own hang ups about sexuality: that it was dirty and sinful if my desires deviated from the standard Christian protocol, which I railed against, while also trying to reconcile two traumatic sexual assaults (society tells me it’s my fault for allowing myself to have been in those situations), and then a husband who didn’t/doesn’t know how to relate to me as a woman. What a fucking mess. I like to think that my Awakening, which followed a period of extreme depression, and coupled with maturity required me to mentally break free. OR maybe it was that I was finally fed up and sick of the norms, values, ethics, upon which I was raised, which led to emotional freedom. Was it my nature that won out over nurture? I think so. I had to make a choice to save myself. My consideration of suicide scared the hell out of me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 22:16:32 GMT -5
Nature all the way. We choose our life, it does not choose us.
I choose to be the worlds greatest lover even if I live celebrate.
Love the computer analogy, roflao!
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Post by shamwow on Nov 6, 2017 10:37:51 GMT -5
In my opinion, it is an interesting question, more if someone is still in their marriage, trying to work on it. For me, we are in therapy now and this is some of the first stuff he is having us work on. What are the ways we were taught about sex? Both the actual sex messaging from parents and the ways they represented sex to us. For my h, his father cheated on his mother and there was tons of pain, fighting, etc. His father was really emotionally abusive and always had lots of girlfriends and women around. His mother, on the other hand, who represented the solid parent with whom he lived 98% of the time, became very asexual and overweight. She never again dated and became very obese. She never talked to him about sex or encouraged him. She worked on herself emotionally and spiritually and modeled that for him however he developed the sense that sex and intimacy are really unsafe. Ironically, my h was really thin when we got married. Within the first year he started putting on weight. He is now quite overweight and quite asexual. The problem is it is really NOT his nature to be asexual. He masturbates (at least several times weekly that I know of) and reports he is very sexually frustrated. It may be all academic. I don't see how you really undo your nature or nurture without a shit load of work- and I am not convinced he is up for that work or I am up for living with a half assed approach to intimacy. I also don't see how we get that pattern of him shutting down around intimacy out of our marriage after 17 years. For now, though, I am in it and we are working. Even if this therapy just gives us a greater knowledge of ourselves I think it is a worthwhile endeavor. I do not, however, believe it will result in actual sex. Just keep in mind that therapy can be the ultimate "reset". Therapists generally don't want to paint one party as the "bad guy" and will point out things that both parties did to create the situation you are in. This can be helpful in helping people better see their (and their partner's) nature and what life experiences (nurture) influenced them. But a therapist cannot make him want to fuck you. It is good that you recognize this, but also realize that therapy can be an endless quagmire of billable hours. If you stop seeing progress, reflect and evaluate whether it is doing any good for either of you and if any meaningful change can come as a result. If not, either find a different therapist or a different man.
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Post by shamwow on Nov 6, 2017 10:44:53 GMT -5
Whether we consciously choose do this it is up to us. Something northstarmom said about children not having much choice, but adults do, and then your comment, shamwow, reminded me of a friend who once said, “if you make a choice that doesn’t work for you, then you can make a new choice.” This is something I teach my girls. Choice is sometimes hard because the end result matters so much. And it can be scary to think of what could go wrong if it’s not the right choice. EXCEPT, the knowledge that a new choice can be made is rather powerful. My point? I’m getting to it. ;-) I married a man to whom I am not physically attracted to. I knew that from the beginning, except I couldn’t reconcile that fact with the fact that I was very attracted to who he is as a person. He’s intelligent and gentle and very kind. Those qualities seemed more important. And I believe, because I was raised in a highly conservative Christian home, that I was making the right choice. We struggled with intimacy from the outset, and for so long I believed that I was The Refuser. And in some circumstances, I was. However, I have come to learn, that he was secretly and deeply addicted to porn. I didn’t want to believe that the porn mags that were stacked in his room at the frat house were his. His brothers teased me about this and I thought they put them there. Time revealed the truth. And so, I have also learned that he didn’t know how to relate to me as a human being, and not simply an object, when it came to intimacy. So was it nurture or nature that held me in this marriage? My own hang ups about sexuality: that it was dirty and sinful if my desires deviated from the standard Christian protocol, which I railed against, while also trying to reconcile two traumatic sexual assaults (society tells me it’s my fault for allowing myself to have been in those situations), and then a husband who didn’t/doesn’t know how to relate to me as a woman. What a fucking mess. I like to think that my Awakening, which followed a period of extreme depression, and coupled with maturity required me to mentally break free. OR maybe it was that I was finally fed up and sick of the norms, values, ethics, upon which I was raised, which led to emotional freedom. Was it my nature that won out over nurture? I think so. I had to make a choice to save myself. My consideration of suicide scared the hell out of me. Considering suicide should scare the hell out of you. The good part, I guess, is that it shows you are still sane. If it makes you feel better, I used to sometimes contemplate the words "till death do we part" while riding my motorcycle and wonder what it would be like to let go of the handlebars Sons of Anarchy - Jax style. You know, "motorcycle accident" that would result in an insurance payout for my kids. And yes, that scared the hell out of me, too.
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Post by M2G on Nov 6, 2017 17:30:14 GMT -5
Thought about it myself, and death in general, but always it comes down to one thing: I gotta know how all this crap we face ultimately shakes out.
If I could turn to the last page of all of this bullshit, what would it say? Was it all worth all this pain? Were the good times enough to make it all worthwhille?
Don’t know. Just hoping the answer is yes.
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Post by Frustrated1978 on Nov 7, 2017 0:19:19 GMT -5
I am a firm believer that in most cases barring a medically diagnosed condition a lot of times an avoidant or low drive spouse is mainly that way to their partner only. Indeed it has suprised many even on this original site that a Refuser did in fact have a healthy labido just not for them.
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