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Post by snowman12345 on Jan 24, 2018 6:03:31 GMT -5
snowman12345 I guess you have been married to your wife for some time? Then you will probably know what her views about affairs are. Has she ever expressed a view about people who have affairs? If she has, then you can take it that that same view would also apply to you. So, what are her views? Sorry if you've already told us. Whenever something like the Wiener or Petraeus scandals were in the news, she would say "they got what they deserved!" This is why I keep my extra curricular activities on the down low. You know, we've had "the talk" about six years ago. She absolutely knows that I need sex. She also knows that if asked something, I will give the truth as I know it. She doesn't ask and I don't tell.
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Post by shamwow on Jan 24, 2018 7:08:19 GMT -5
[....munching popcorn....] Good job, all. Keep going. I'm not being sarcastic. Due to the discussion here, I antagonized The Husband today with, "You don't get to comment on the fact I'm looking for a boyfriend since you're not a participant in my sex life." [He doesn't know it already happened and I got discarded.] But he is doing Reset Sex after 21 years of sex once every 6-8 weeks and my constant begging, so he got INSULTED. Because he's showing up NOW. And he wants to know "why do you keep bringing up the past"? Because we've had Reset Sex every time I start crying and threatening divorce and throwing things and I've already seen this Dog and Pony Show 100 times, and I'm over it. [Hence, the divorce papers.] But no, this time it's different. I almost hate myself for participating in Reset Sex. It's like I absolved him. I KNOW BETTER. That's why I'm mad. He now thinks he is a willing participant and there's nothing i can do to convince him otherwise. What a mind fuck. Dumb question, but why participate? For me, refusing to play the game was the first step towwards becoming a whole person again. Instead of living off scraps I had to beg for I took care of my own needs and planned my escape. For me it meant 3 years of celibacy since I wouldn't chase the sugar high of outsourcing. I stopped begging and trying to fix someone ho was clearly broken. She didn't want help. Instead I focused on fixing the other broken person in the relationship. Me. And then I got out. There were costs but also amazing benefits.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 24, 2018 7:40:24 GMT -5
“Instead I focused on fixing the other broken person in the relationship. Me. And then I got out. There were costs but also amazing benefits.”
Very similar to what I did: spent the last 6 years of my marriage healing and discovering me and making friends whom I enjoyed and who appreciated me. The focus on me was worth it. I basically grieved my marriage with the support of a therapist and friends when I was still in it. I didn’t go through a lot of angst when I divorced even though I’d been with him 36 years. it ended up my stbx was involved with another woman and thought he’d fathered her toddler. I also had a support system of close women and men friends whom I could talk to while going through the divorce.
To be technically true, I started dating months after we decided to divorce. We were still married and living together but that was only so I could remain on his insurance for about a year until he retired and move abroad. We lived like polite roommates. We each had agreed that the other could date as they wished. Keep in mind that stbx already had been fucking someone. I was honest on my dating profiles. One of my sons (then age 23) even helped me set it up: He volunteered to do that.
I had terminated therapy with my therapist’s agreement about 2 years before deciding to divorce. While divorcing, I reenterrd it with her for the extra support and help navigating the divorce and dating. She and my friends were especially helpful in helping me return to the dating world. They also helped me focus on making sure I was being fair to myself in the settlement. I had worried about my husband’s mental state since — due to his being sterile because of prostate surgery in his early 60s that caused him to ejaculate into his bladder, I knew the child he thought he’d fathered couldn’t be his (I was proved right by the dna testing I requested as part of the divorce).
I ended with a nonvindictive settlement fair to both of us. There was no nastiness during the process. Apparently, my ex had long wanted out but was too cowardly to ask. I thought his indifference, lack of full participation in couples counseling, lack of sex were due to incipient Alzheimer’s. Instead, they were his hints he wanted a divorce.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 24, 2018 9:01:42 GMT -5
snowman12345 I guess you have been married to your wife for some time? Then you will probably know what her views about affairs are. Has she ever expressed a view about people who have affairs? If she has, then you can take it that that same view would also apply to you. So, what are her views? Sorry if you've already told us. Whenever something like the Wiener or Petraeus scandals were in the news, she would say "they got what they deserved!" This is why I keep my extra curricular activities on the down low. You know, we've had "the talk" about six years ago. She absolutely knows that I need sex. She also knows that if asked something, I will give the truth as I know it. She doesn't ask and I don't tell. And there's a reason she doesn't ask. She doesn't want to know. My ex never asked me about if I dated? If I had sex? He doesn't want to know? He doesn't want to discuss anything sexual, at least not with me. And that's fine, I have an amazing friend and lover to provide that for me.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 24, 2018 12:01:54 GMT -5
I am just that desperate. Plain and simple.
I've never had regular, ongoing, good-enough sex in my entire life, so when a crumb is thrown my way, I go for it.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 24, 2018 12:07:02 GMT -5
I am just that desperate. Plain and simple. I've never had regular, ongoing, good-enough sex in my entire life, so when a crumb is thrown my way, I go for it. That is understandable. Also is the approach that it is, only a crumb. Since you have been receiving so little verses your giving, you are not giving up anything by NOT taking the crumb.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 24, 2018 12:28:40 GMT -5
I figure most people know the answer to this but I can’t completely make sense of it. Why would a refuser want their partner to be faithful ? I can see that outsourcing wouldn’t suite a lot of those who are refused for many good reasons but I was wondering what everyone’s thought were with regards to a refuser wanting their partner to stay but not tolerating outsourcing. It seems hypocritical. I have thought a long time on this question. Intimacy-averse marriages are based on a lie.The lie is that both parties are invested in a household enterprise with foundations in a unique, mutual attraction to each other as its bedrock. In truth, that mutual attraction is absent and has been replaced with repulsion by at least one of the married partners. The lie is told in the hope of maintaining the many shared benefits that are associated with the marital relationship (children, finances, shelter, division of labour, company, predictability). They lie to themselves, to each other, to family, friends, co-workers, acquaintances, strangers and institutions. The lie is carried as part of their identity as a person. Where formerly, the strength of their mutual attraction and love buoyed them through the most extreme tests of hardship, now the burden of the lie is added to that hardship. And, who would blame them, based on what's at stake? So, why would party who is repulsed by his or her partner be threatened by a third party? So the question is, if the mutual-attraction is absent, to what are the parties faithful? Simply, the acknowledged desire for the third-party threatens the credibility of the lie, and thus everything they think depends on that lie. It calls attention to the absence at the base of the marriage. It means that one of the two parties is now leaving the tacit agreement to lie - a lie that both parties have sacrificed to maintain in the service of those shared benefits. So, even though the married partners do not share an erotic relationship, the choice to leave the lie about the relationship threatens everything associated with it. And that is simply from acknowledging it - irrespective of the unpredictable desires that spring from the paramour him or herself. So, just as engaging in an outside relationship with a paramour inevitably illuminates and contrasts with the absence in the marital relationship for the married affair partner, it ALSO illuminates the absence for the one who is intimately averse to that partner. The averse partner feels that the married couple no longer carries the burden of an unsatisfying sexual attraction equally. Moreover, the averse partner feels humiliated in that a third party obviously knows the secret. The fact that the paramour finds that partner attractive makes it impossible to totally blame the absence of attraction on the partner who they don't want. Thus their altruistic narrative that they are taking one for the team by managing celibacy with an objectively unattractive person is threatened. It calls attention to their own choices and implies that they also may have to take responsibilities.
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Post by njsojourner on Nov 19, 2018 23:05:19 GMT -5
I have been married for 40 years, the last 10 without sex. My wife is a wonderful person and caring mother and grandmother (at 63). She feels bad and guilty that I want sex and she doesn't. Once a few years ago, she alluded to"giving me permission" to outsource but then pulled back and never mentioned it again. She won't discuss our situation further. I have always been a faithful, ethical person but the unfair and untenable situation I found myself in has eaten away at me over the last few years. The choices are: (1)stay and have a sexless marriage forever and be resentful; (2)leave and find myself a mate who likes sex (and hurt my wife, kids and grand kids) or (3)outsource in as discreet a way as possible so as not to embarrass or hurt my wife by being overt and in her face with it. The options are not great all around so I took the path of greatest satisfaction for me--I have been outsourcing for the past year or so. After the first few times I felt less nervous and anxious about it and less guilty. I have no illusions--sooner or later I am sure my wife will find out, she will go ballistic, divorce will likely follow. This will not be my choice though it will be partly my fault. Spouses who don't want sex and also don't won't their spouse to be satisfied by outsourcing also bear some responsibility. Am I happy with what I am doing? Hell yes! I have sex 3-4 times month now. I am a serial dater--I am on my third partner in 18 months or so. I can't say enough about how much happier I am and how I have become more kind and sensitive to my wife's non-sexual needs I think because the anger and barrier that our non-sexual relationship created is gone. One might call it guilt but really its just that after having sex I just feel so much more fulfilled and happy. This my experience but I realize its not for everyone but divorce is expensive and disruptive and if a lack of sex is the only issue alienating a couple in an otherwise solid marriage why sweat it: find a sex partner and go at it.
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Post by choosinghappy on Nov 19, 2018 23:40:07 GMT -5
I have been married for 40 years, the last 10 without sex. My wife is a wonderful person and caring mother and grandmother (at 63). She feels bad and guilty that I want sex and she doesn't. Once a few years ago, she alluded to"giving me permission" to outsource but then pulled back and never mentioned it again. She won't discuss our situation further. I have always been a faithful, ethical person but the unfair and untenable situation I found myself in has eaten away at me over the last few years. The choices are: (1)stay and have a sexless marriage forever and be resentful; (2)leave and find myself a mate who likes sex (and hurt my wife, kids and grand kids) or (3)outsource in as discreet a way as possible so as not to embarrass or hurt my wife by being overt and in her face with it. The options are not great all around so I took the path of greatest satisfaction for me--I have been outsourcing for the past year or so. After the first few times I felt less nervous and anxious about it and less guilty. I have no illusions--sooner or later I am sure my wife will find out, she will go ballistic, divorce will likely follow. This will not be my choice though it will be partly my fault. Spouses who don't want sex and also don't won't their spouse to be satisfied by outsourcing also bear some responsibility. Am I happy with what I am doing? Hell yes! I have sex 3-4 times month now. I am a serial dater--I am on my third partner in 18 months or so. I can't say enough about how much happier I am and how I have become more kind and sensitive to my wife's non-sexual needs I think because the anger and barrier that our non-sexual relationship created is gone. One might call it guilt but really its just that after having sex I just feel so much more fulfilled and happy. This my experience but I realize its not for everyone but divorce is expensive and disruptive and if a lack of sex is the only issue alienating a couple in an otherwise solid marriage why sweat it: find a sex partner and go at it. “Find a sex partner and go at it.” 😆 Haha words to live by!
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Post by baza on Nov 19, 2018 23:52:16 GMT -5
Outsourcing is a guaranteed game changer and can spin off at crazy tangents. And you can never know what tangent it might fly off at. One of the tangents it can fly off to is - as you say Brother njsojourner - "I have no illusions--sooner or later I am sure my wife will find out, she will go ballistic, divorce will likely follow".For that reason I suggest that you do the things constantly suggested in here - - consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish how a divorce would theoretically shake out for you - start putting together a theoretical exit strategy - shore up and consolidate your support network - research how you can manage the kids (looks like yours are all adults) through such a process. You can be somewhat prepared should your outsourcing fly off to the divorce tangent. I hope your choice keeps working out for you Brother njsojourner , but it is a highly adventurous choice, and things can change at breathtaking speed.
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Post by jamesbonding on Nov 20, 2018 0:48:58 GMT -5
njsojourner, I think it's possible your wife knows or suspects that you are outsourcing, and is OK with it, especially since you are being discreet (not causing a scandal among her friends and family) and because it hasn't negatively affected your home life with your wife, in fact as you say you are happier and "more kind and sensitive" toward her. If she's OK with it, then it's unlikely she would "go ballistic" and divorce you. But if she does go ballistic, I would 1. stay calm 2. Listen carefully and try to understand exactly why she is upset (active listening. Check out Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg) 3. point out that the marriage has been a lot more pleasant for both of you with the outsourcing; if you had not outsourced, you would have been a lot more resentful and the marriage would be a lot less pleasant.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 21, 2022 4:50:46 GMT -5
The lie is that both parties are invested in a ...unique, mutual attraction to each other ... In truth, that mutual attraction is absent and has been replaced with repulsion by at least one of the married partners. The lie is told in the hope of maintaining the many shared benefits that are associated with the marital relationship (children, finances, shelter, division of labour, company, predictability). ... The lie is carried as part of their identity as a person. Where formerly, the strength of their mutual attraction and love buoyed them through the most extreme tests of hardship, now the burden of the lie is added to that hardship. Simply, the acknowledged desire for the third-party threatens ... means that one of the two parties is now leaving the tacit agreement to lie -...[E]ven though the married partners do not share an erotic relationship, the choice to leave the lie about the relationship threatens everything associated with it.
And that is simply from acknowledging it - irrespective of the unpredictable desires that spring from the paramour him or herself. [E]ngaging in an outside relationship with a paramour ... illuminates the absence ... The averse partner feels that the married couple no longer carries the burden of an unsatisfying sexual attraction equally. The fact that the paramour finds that [refused] partner attractive makes it impossible to totally blame the absence of attraction on the partner who [the refuser doesn't] want. Thus [the refuser's] altruistic narrative that they are taking one for the team by managing celibacy with an objectively unattractive person is threatened. It calls attention to their own choices and implies that they also may have to take responsibilities. I think I thank ex-Mrs. Apocrypha for saying that absurd line of hers "I'm stuck in a sexless marriage too!" If just for this one thread, it served a purpose to humanity. Sorry it was only possible to birth it in such a crapola scenario for you, Apocrypha. If an affair is discovered, it can explain why forgiveness is hard to come by and healing can take an eternity. The illumination doesn't go away even if the affair completely ends. The affair can add to the distaste the refuser has for the refused, but the acceptance by the paramour undermines the fiction that their partner is not attractive for a good reason, consciously or unconsciously. It doesn't even tolerate the failure to identify the problem. "I don't know why I don't want sex [with you]." It magnifies the portion of blame for the celibacy on the refuser. I bolded the part about acknowledgement. This is huge. The expression of a desire for marital counseling or "The Talk" will, itself, cause problems. All the more so if it repeats. The lie is being actively denied by the refused and the burden is foisted on the refuser. The refuser is all the more furious/resentful for being blamed for the refused party's unquestioned unworthiness. It is hardly the refuser's fault that the refuser was a poor choice of mate! How dare he/she! If the refused was sexy, of course the refuser would respond with great gusto! How much better (worse) the affair! The crystal clear unworthiness is demonstrably overstated or entirely fictional. The refusal excuse is shot through, bleeding, left with second choices of rationalization: the paramour is so much less than the refuser that the refused is "bottom-feeding" and, therefore, still pathetic, the refused had to bribe the paramour with dinner dates (like a low-rent hooker), the self-absorbed loser fell for the sweet nothings of the paramour who's unable to find a spouse on their own and has to steal one. Seething anger results from having to cope with self-doubt, the questioning of their justifications. How dare the refuser solve their problem at the refused's expense! This emphasizes to me that "The Talk" should happen only once. "The Talk" damages the lie and any repetition becomes an increasingly less potent threat and instead accumulates annoyance, not urgency. The refused's unworthiness that the refuser convinces themselves exists, grows. The need to avoid repeating expressions of sexual dissatisfaction explains the need for a deadline for results in a "Talk". It makes plain the expectation that action by the refuser is required or consequences will ensue. Resent the exposure of the lie all you like. Scream, growl, threaten... the due date won't change. Figure out the problem, with or without me, and fix it, or else. When it doesn't change, the divorce papers, informed outsourcing, or secret affair can commence. The refuser can then act in whatever way they deem appropriate. It really seems like a band-aid ripping scenario, every moment you try to make it hurt less by going slowly makes it worse. The deadline is the refused spouse gritting their teeth, hyperventilating and murmuring "1...2....3!" My own situation has enjoyed a lengthy reset; over two years now. I do not know how much of it had to do with my unusual course where I dated and received blatant offers of sexual activity from one of my dates, then my platonic dating was discovered. While I don't think my wife felt I was unworthy, the dating also forced the recognition that sexlessness was inevitably going to cause either an affair or divorce and it had to be destroyed. An affair proves you're at least somewhat worthy, successful dating does the same thing without the societal support behind the refuser's back. If no affair happened (yet), how can the refuser explain leaving you? Is an "emotional affair" good enough to avoid people raising an eyebrow? Probably not. Is it even an "emotional affair" if the falling in love part hasn't happened before the sex does? How difficult must it be to know your spouse has scheduled the third date (the first non-platonic one, not uncommonly) with someone, you're choosing to send them off with a full head of steam, and yet you want to blame them for their own celibacy. I would think it's a difficult mentality to maintain.
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