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Post by carl on Oct 20, 2017 20:17:19 GMT -5
I think now that most refusers know far more about their sexual limitations than they let on and have done for far longer than they admit. I think they had the problem before they even had any partner. Probably caused splits in any previous relationships. And the ones whose partners have ended up so trapped, have developed a complex and sophisticated facade of behaviour to fake, deflect or pin blame elsewhere to hide their devastating secret that despite being intelligent, witty, charming, handsome or beautiful they inherently have been, are and always will be (for want of a better expression) crap in bed. It is amazing how skilful humans can be at hiding their weaknesses and how they are drawn to those who can’t see them. So I think that many refugees know that they are deceiving their partner all along, with the partners who have the strongest sex drives being the least suspecting victims.
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Post by baza on Oct 20, 2017 21:00:28 GMT -5
You could well be right, taking this position that - "most refusers know far more about their sexual limitations than they let on and have done for far longer than they admit" Brother carl Personally, I don't have any axe to grind with people who have little or no sexual desire. If that's who you are then that's who you are. Same with people with high levels of sexual desire. If that's who they are then that's who they are. What I have a HUGE problem with, is people who lie. Pretending to be something other than what they are to run a hidden agenda. As an obvious example, the "bait and switch" scenario where a person alludes to, hints at, gives every possible indication that they are going to be up for a robust sexual aspect to the relationship - then once the bait is taken revert to their true position of sexual avoidance. This could just as easily go the other way, with a person suppressing their sexual persona to run an agenda to ensnare another, giving off signals that sex isn't that important to them, then once the bait is taken, starts conducting a series of extra-marital affairs. It ain't the sexual desire level in people that's the problem. It's the outright lying about it that is the problem. Personal opinion - I don't think being a` low desire person is a hanging offence. I do however think that lying about such a fundamental thing to run a hidden agenda IS a hanging offence.
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Post by elkclan2 on Oct 31, 2017 5:14:17 GMT -5
Was my refuser aware? I'm not sure that he was. He had a whole range of issues where he was unable to see someone else's point of view or accept responsibility for his part in any problems.
He blamed ME for his lack of sexual satisfaction, saying my vagina was too loose, etc. This partly became a self-fulfilling prophesy. I knew the 'looseness' was bullshit, but I wondered if I put him off by coming on too strong, by wanting too much and not giving him enough 'space' to become fully sexual. He had never slept with anyone else before me. Instead of seeing that as a red flag that he was sexually dysfunctional I blamed myself for not introducing him to sex in a more comforting way. I allowed his twisted thoughts to twist mine. The more he criticised my sexual approach, the more I doubted myself and became less passionate, I allowed my natural sexual self to be suppressed. He complained about everything I did sexually, and instead of seeing that this was part of his refusal, I accepted what he said as truth.
So do they know? Maybe some do, but the capacity for self deception is enormous and many people would rather blame anyone but themselves, while others will blame themselves before they recognise the fault in someone else. When these two types get together AND there is a libido mismatch...well, it's a recipe for disaster.
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Post by workingonit on Oct 31, 2017 6:09:37 GMT -5
It came out in therapy recently that my h had a aversion to sex with the one long term girlfriend he had before me. I did not know that at all. I agree with baza that this is not a hanging offense. However I did not know it. But I really think my h lied to himself that it would be different with me. I do not believe he willfully misled me. He honestly believed that marriage, particularly to a strong woman, would be different.
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Post by h on Oct 31, 2017 6:25:37 GMT -5
It came out in therapy recently that my h had a aversion to sex with the one long term girlfriend he had before me. I did not know that at all. I agree with baza that this is not a hanging offense. However I did not know it. But I really think my h lied to himself that it would be different with me. I do not believe he willfully misled me. He honestly believed that marriage, particularly to a strong woman, would be different. Extremely similar in my case also. I don't think my W intentionally misled me. She only had one partner before me and it wasn't a good experience. I remember one conversation we had about it before marriage. She told me that the other guy was bad at it, didn't care about helping her get aroused, and was only interested in getting off. I assured her that I would love to take as long as needed to make sure she enjoyed it too. She seemed genuinely happy by that and I think she really did believe that everything would be fine after we were married. The simple fact is that we shouldn't have waited for marriage. We didn't know what we didn't know. Now I realize that we were never sexually compatible and got married completely ignorant of that fact.
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Post by workingonit on Oct 31, 2017 7:02:35 GMT -5
It came out in therapy recently that my h had a aversion to sex with the one long term girlfriend he had before me. I did not know that at all. I agree with baza that this is not a hanging offense. However I did not know it. But I really think my h lied to himself that it would be different with me. I do not believe he willfully misled me. He honestly believed that marriage, particularly to a strong woman, would be different. Extremely similar in my case also. I don't think my W intentionally misled me. She only had one partner before me and it wasn't a good experience. I remember one conversation we had about it before marriage. She told me that the other guy was bad at it, didn't care about helping her get aroused, and was only interested in getting off. I assured her that I would love to take as long as needed to make sure she enjoyed it too. She seemed genuinely happy by that and I think she really did believe that everything would be fine after we were married. The simple fact is that we shouldn't have waited for marriage. We didn't know what we didn't know. Now I realize that we were never sexually compatible and got married completely ignorant of that fact. Yes, that is me exactly too. I had other partners as did my h but we waited with each other until marriage. We are such a mismatch sexually and always have been. This is the fact that really leads me to know we will end up divorcing. Even if he wants to change and does the hard work to deal with and heal the shame and insecurity he has about sex, we have never been compatible. I don't see how that fundamental issue changes.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 31, 2017 8:29:04 GMT -5
It came out in therapy recently that my h had a aversion to sex with the one long term girlfriend he had before me. I did not know that at all. I agree with baza that this is not a hanging offense. However I did not know it. But I really think my h lied to himself that it would be different with me. I do not believe he willfully misled me. He honestly believed that marriage, particularly to a strong woman, would be different. Extremely similar in my case also. I don't think my W intentionally misled me. She only had one partner before me and it wasn't a good experience. I remember one conversation we had about it before marriage. She told me that the other guy was bad at it, didn't care about helping her get aroused, and was only interested in getting off. I assured her that I would love to take as long as needed to make sure she enjoyed it too. She seemed genuinely happy by that and I think she really did believe that everything would be fine after we were married. The simple fact is that we shouldn't have waited for marriage. We didn't know what we didn't know. Now I realize that we were never sexually compatible and got married completely ignorant of that fact. Getting kissed by a spouse in a SM is like getting kissed by a vampire. It's a pain in the neck!! Happy Halloween!
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Post by WindSister on Oct 31, 2017 8:53:01 GMT -5
I agree with Baza as well about the lying part. I think some people don't know themselves, though, and maybe inadvertently end up liars simply because they don't know how to live authentically. It's important to know yourself and how many of us fools really knew ourselves in our young 20's or whenever we first got married? I sure as hell had no clue. It's taken a lifetime to figure myself out (and I am not completely there). That's why I think there is so much divorce in the middle age group. People change, relationships can't always keep up. Actually, I am not sure we even "change" but more, we take off the masks and become more ourselves. Some lucky people have lived authentic from day one. But most really don't know who they are until a little life happens to them. If I had been begging my ex for sex for 10 years, I could call him a "refuser" but fact is, I wasn't chasing him either. It wasn't until the end of our relationship after 10 years sexless I suddenly thought, "WHAT THE HELL??? We don't have sex!!!!" Then I wanted things to change, I wanted him to change. That was asking too much. So can I really blame him for it all? Nope. For some damn reason I was going along with the status quo until one day I decided I didn't want to anymore. Not letting that happen again is my ultimate goal. I want a life of passion, intimacy, enthusiasm and shared joy.
A note on sex drives, though, I highly doubt a couple can ever be 100% equally matched in that department. Maybe it's a limiting belief of mine, but I just don't see how it can be possible. Hormones change, age, health affects sex drive -- it all ebbs and flows, maybe one partner is high while the other is low and then it switches, etc.
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Post by hopingforachange on Oct 31, 2017 9:50:11 GMT -5
WindSisterI agree that 2 people can never have a perfect sexual match but they can be close enough that they can make it work. Maybe she likes being a sub and he likes slow sex. Well, if they both care about sex and want to make each other happy then they figure it out. One week is her type of sex, the next his or if they are both HL, the first round he Dominates her and the 2nd round is slow and tender and is part of their after care to prevent Dom and sub drop.
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 31, 2017 10:00:01 GMT -5
In addition to what was said above there are all sorts of side bars that can come into play. I don't think my X intentionally hid her sexuality prior to our marriage. She initiated as much as me, maybe more sometimes. But circumstances changed for us. She sees herself as an Alpha female. She saw me as an Alpha male. As we aged both of us experienced lowered hormones and our sex life lagged. When I realized this about myself I set about dealing with it, my X did not. And after the company I worked for closed the doors and I became unemployed and she continued working, she no longer saw me as an Alpha male, even thought I still contributed as much financially as she did. So any # of factors can come into play, and one set of circumstances can compound another to bring about the ruin of what should have been good. During one of our "talks" she admitted she was largely at fault for the lack of intimacy and acknowledged she had broken the marriage vows through her behavior. She attempted to be more active but it just wasn't in her to match my libido anymore. And she came to view sex as more of a chore, "one more thing she had to do". We all start out as one person, 20yrs. later the probability is, we will be someone else.
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Post by shamwow on Oct 31, 2017 10:19:27 GMT -5
It came out in therapy recently that my h had a aversion to sex with the one long term girlfriend he had before me. I did not know that at all. I agree with baza that this is not a hanging offense. However I did not know it. But I really think my h lied to himself that it would be different with me. I do not believe he willfully misled me. He honestly believed that marriage, particularly to a strong woman, would be different. Extremely similar in my case also. I don't think my W intentionally misled me. She only had one partner before me and it wasn't a good experience. I remember one conversation we had about it before marriage. She told me that the other guy was bad at it, didn't care about helping her get aroused, and was only interested in getting off. I assured her that I would love to take as long as needed to make sure she enjoyed it too. She seemed genuinely happy by that and I think she really did believe that everything would be fine after we were married. The simple fact is that we shouldn't have waited for marriage. We didn't know what we didn't know. Now I realize that we were never sexually compatible and got married completely ignorant of that fact. My ex and I lived together for a couple years before getting married. Sex was constant. It might have been unenthusiastic in retrospect, but she was the only woman I'd ever been with and I had no basis of comparison. I was in my early-mid 20's and finally found a woman who would sleep with me. Ring goes on and the well instantly ran dry. I should have left at that point, but I didn't. When she wanted kids, the faucet turned back on. As soon as conception was achieved, it turned back off. I should have known better before having our second child, but by that point I was almost a decade into my personal beatdown and was just happy to be getting some...even if I knew it was going to get cut off as soon as conception occurred. She had some additional issues that led me to try to heal her. But it took 20 years for me to truly understand you can't "fix" another person if they don't want to be fixed. I'm slow learner it appears. But it was a classic bait and switch. She got what she wanted (income and kids). 20 years later, she has about 2/3 kids and 1/4 income (with child support it will be 44% of income for the next few years). I didn't punish her by finally leaving. She punished herself for lying about her desire to get what she wanted. It's funny how the universe works that way.
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Post by h on Oct 31, 2017 10:38:03 GMT -5
Extremely similar in my case also. I don't think my W intentionally misled me. She only had one partner before me and it wasn't a good experience. I remember one conversation we had about it before marriage. She told me that the other guy was bad at it, didn't care about helping her get aroused, and was only interested in getting off. I assured her that I would love to take as long as needed to make sure she enjoyed it too. She seemed genuinely happy by that and I think she really did believe that everything would be fine after we were married. The simple fact is that we shouldn't have waited for marriage. We didn't know what we didn't know. Now I realize that we were never sexually compatible and got married completely ignorant of that fact. Yes, that is me exactly too. I had other partners as did my h but we waited with each other until marriage. We are such a mismatch sexually and always have been. This is the fact that really leads me to know we will end up divorcing. Even if he wants to change and does the hard work to deal with and heal the shame and insecurity he has about sex, we have never been compatible. I don't see how that fundamental issue changes. I never had any other partners and my W only had the one. We waited until marriage so I had no comparison or frame of reference for what to expect. I just assumed that we would be going like rabbits once we got married because that's what newlyweds are supposed to do. Big surprise when I found out that she wasn't really all that interested in sex but still expected me to go through all the over the top romantic gestures anyway. Her definition of a romantic relationship didn't require sex. I don't think she intentionally lied to me because she didn't define romance in the same way that I did.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2017 10:42:28 GMT -5
In my own circumstances, I don't think she knew because she was hiding it from herself. Or maybe more accurately, until you're in a long term relationship you don't have anything to compare it with. I should've seen it coming but ignored the signs.
In the end, it doesn't matter. You can either continue on and this is your life or you can choose a different life.
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 31, 2017 10:59:52 GMT -5
It can be very hard especially for women to know about our own libidos. For instance, most women are given the message by society, religion, family that they are the gatekeepers when it comes to sex. Guys are expected to be perpetually horney and to lack self control and good sense about getting sex. Women are expected to have the self control (eg low libidos) to be able to say no. As a result, women especially learn to ignore or deny their lives libidos.
Guys also have fairly easy ways to know they are getting turned on: they get hard. Women get wet but may think that is an embarrassing bladder control problem (as I did until I read Everything you ever wanted to know about sex), not a signal they desire sex.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Oct 31, 2017 14:05:10 GMT -5
I also have an Ex who didn't lie, or didn't mean to. He was married when I met him and she (W1) was sleeping around with everyone but him. Because of some aspect of that dynamic, my future H was very active sexually when we first got together. She left and he was raising the 3 kids - I eventually moved in. We still had pretty great frequency. Eventually (after 8 years together) we married and it was still "fine" - whenever the sex dried up, as it did from time to time, I initiated conversation about it and we had more sex more often for a while. I don't believe this was a devious and sneaky reset tactic - he was raising three younguns and I didn't try to take the place of their mom....aka..."life happened" is all, I think. But once he got his prostate removed as part of cancer diagnosis and treatment - a LOT changed. He changed a lot, not just sexually but also in a lot of basic demeanor too. He became petty and childish and much more selfish than ever before (a "poor me" syndrome, so to speak). I think the folks here who suffer bait & switch may agree with the OP, but for me it was different. If anything, my Ex may have lied to himself and thereby told me what he believed to be true but wasn't - but it was never a plan for him to be that way. That's my theory, anyhow.
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