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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 22, 2017 19:01:19 GMT -5
Update on the friend: she was asking me about advice for how to take her new man's seemingly odd "typical guy" behavior. He's not very different from me personality-wise so she needed a little behavioral translation and explanation. She seemed baffled why he would want to spend time alone at his recreational activities instead of with her (not all the time but often). I assured her that he wasn't avoiding her and just needed some relaxation time. The friend had been through some tough relationships and is learning how to trust again. Her new guy has been hurt before too and is hesitant to open up more. She joked with me that I had to work on her guy and in turn, she would work on my W. I opened up a little more and told her she could try but there wasn't much point since I didn't think my W would ever change. I don't think she knew that it had always been like this. She was very sympathetic when I told her it had been this way from the start. I told her she could try but that we would likely end up divorced eventually. All of this was through texting. My W asked what we were talking about and I told her the truth minus a few specific details. I told her that her friend needed guy advice and that if I helped her with him, she would help me with my W. W was visibly upset by the thought that I was talking to outsiders about our SM. It turned into a huge argument later last night. She proceeded to blame me for not fulfilling her emotional needs and that's why she isn't interested in sex. I called bullshit on her because it's been this way from the beginning and I can't continue to meet her needs if she's going to refuse to meet mine. I bluntly told her that if nothing changes then this is never going to work out. She slept on the couch last night. "She proceeded to blame me for not fulfilling her emotional needs and that's why she isn't interested in sex". Sounds like DARVO and Golden Uterus Syndrome. Fulfilling someones emotional needs can easily become the never ending "never good enough, moving of the goal post". Once again, that gives one spouse FULL CONTROL of determining something as vague as "emotional needs". You are not a mind reader. The fact that you gave her a specific boundary; a physical act- not some need or feeling or emotion ,that can be defined however the controller want to define it- instead you asked for specific action. Sounds like you took her fake mask off,leveled the playing field, and....SHE DOES NOT LIKE THAT!! Let me speculate, and guess, that you are mildly happy about that? It's a sad victory isn't it. I am no veteran but I can only guess it's like winning the battle, and then having to live with all the killing that happened.
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Post by h on Oct 22, 2017 19:03:55 GMT -5
I reckon that your "best case scenario" here is that your missus might drop her external act that everything is great. It's highly unlikely that it will shift her core beliefs by one iota., but she might become a bit more selective about "who" she puts the act on for. Presumably, this mutual friend won't be one of them any more, and it will probably be strongly suggested to you that this mutual friend ought not be your confidante any longer./ W was definitely pissed that I confided in her friend and strongly implied that I should refrain from doing so in the future. I asked her who I was allowed to talk to about it since W never wanted to talk about our problems. Got no response to that. I finally think that she's figured out that I'm not going to participate in the facade any longer. The lies come tumbling down!
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 22, 2017 19:11:13 GMT -5
I reckon that your "best case scenario" here is that your missus might drop her external act that everything is great. It's highly unlikely that it will shift her core beliefs by one iota., but she might become a bit more selective about "who" she puts the act on for. Presumably, this mutual friend won't be one of them any more, and it will probably be strongly suggested to you that this mutual friend ought not be your confidante any longer./ W was definitely pissed that I confided in her friend and strongly implied that I should refrain from doing so in the future. I asked her who I was allowed to talk to about it since W never wanted to talk about our problems. Got no response to that. I finally think that she's figured out that I'm not going to participate in the facade any longer. The lies come tumbling down! Get ready, hell is coming to breakfast! Problem? What problem? Things have been going her way all along, you're the one with the problem. Just don't mention such trivial things like truth, and facts, those get in the way.
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Post by h on Oct 22, 2017 19:27:44 GMT -5
Update on the friend: she was asking me about advice for how to take her new man's seemingly odd "typical guy" behavior. He's not very different from me personality-wise so she needed a little behavioral translation and explanation. She seemed baffled why he would want to spend time alone at his recreational activities instead of with her (not all the time but often). I assured her that he wasn't avoiding her and just needed some relaxation time. The friend had been through some tough relationships and is learning how to trust again. Her new guy has been hurt before too and is hesitant to open up more. She joked with me that I had to work on her guy and in turn, she would work on my W. I opened up a little more and told her she could try but there wasn't much point since I didn't think my W would ever change. I don't think she knew that it had always been like this. She was very sympathetic when I told her it had been this way from the start. I told her she could try but that we would likely end up divorced eventually. All of this was through texting. My W asked what we were talking about and I told her the truth minus a few specific details. I told her that her friend needed guy advice and that if I helped her with him, she would help me with my W. W was visibly upset by the thought that I was talking to outsiders about our SM. It turned into a huge argument later last night. She proceeded to blame me for not fulfilling her emotional needs and that's why she isn't interested in sex. I called bullshit on her because it's been this way from the beginning and I can't continue to meet her needs if she's going to refuse to meet mine. I bluntly told her that if nothing changes then this is never going to work out. She slept on the couch last night. "She proceeded to blame me for not fulfilling her emotional needs and that's why she isn't interested in sex". Sounds like DARVO and Golden Uterus Syndrome. Fulfilling someones emotional needs can easily become the never ending "never good enough, moving of the goal post". Once again, that gives one spouse FULL CONTROL of determining something as vague as "emotional needs". You are not a mind reader. The fact that you gave her a specific boundary; a physical act- not some need or feeling or emotion ,that can be defined however the controller want to define it- instead you asked for specific action. Sounds like you took her fake mask off,leveled the playing field, and....SHE DOES NOT LIKE THAT!! Let me speculate, and guess, that you are mildly happy about that? It's a sad victory isn't it. I am no veteran but I can only guess it's like winning the battle, and then having to live with all the killing that happened. If it hadn't been for my time spent here, I wouldn't have known what DARVO was, much less recognized it. Thanks to all of you here, I was aware of what was going on and had the confidence to confront it. She didn't like it but this is probably moving towards a line in the sand for me. If she wants to fight and lie, I'll expose the lies to another friend or relative. She now knows I'm not bluffing so either she will work with me on fixing the marriage or work with me on ending it.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 22, 2017 21:32:56 GMT -5
"She proceeded to blame me for not fulfilling her emotional needs and that's why she isn't interested in sex". Sounds like DARVO and Golden Uterus Syndrome. Fulfilling someones emotional needs can easily become the never ending "never good enough, moving of the goal post". Once again, that gives one spouse FULL CONTROL of determining something as vague as "emotional needs". You are not a mind reader. The fact that you gave her a specific boundary; a physical act- not some need or feeling or emotion ,that can be defined however the controller want to define it- instead you asked for specific action. Sounds like you took her fake mask off,leveled the playing field, and....SHE DOES NOT LIKE THAT!! Let me speculate, and guess, that you are mildly happy about that? It's a sad victory isn't it. I am no veteran but I can only guess it's like winning the battle, and then having to live with all the killing that happened. If it hadn't been for my time spent here, I wouldn't have known what DARVO was, much less recognized it. Thanks to all of you here, I was aware of what was going on and had the confidence to confront it. She didn't like it but this is probably moving towards a line in the sand for me. If she wants to fight and lie, I'll expose the lies to another friend or relative. She now knows I'm not bluffing so either she will work with me on fixing the marriage or work with me on ending it. I mentioned DARVO and boundaries to you earlier. It sounds like you are more and more aware of it when it occurs. It's taken me a long time to see it, now I'm learning how to call it out and stand up against it. Let me share an example from a few hours ago. My daughter and I are in the garage working on her school project. Grandpa opens up the garage door, and -doesn't ask- tells my daughter that she needs to come and do something for him. My daughter tells him," Not right now ,I'm kind of busy, go ask mom to do it for you". ( my daughter had glue and wet paint on her hands while her mother is sitting on her ass in the recliner at the back of the house) Grandpa responds," you don't want to help grandpa any more? you don't love me?". Well.....that ticked me off...royally!! I turned to him and said, " that is not what she said at all!! Stop twisting her words and manipulating what she said." He shut the door and nothing else was said. I turned to my daughter and said, "how did I do?" She thought it was great! I have also been having conversations with my teens , that their mother-and her brother and sister- are responsible for taking care of grandpa, not a bunch of young teens. That it is long over due for his side of the family to step up,and not force kids to be adults, nursing an elderly parent. Later in the night when my daughter is telling grandpa goodnight , I hear him whispering to her-just that whispering, deception,tells me it's more manipulation, that he can't say it out loud- sort of like our spouses not wanting to discuss the SM with anyone else-he's telling her "you know how much I love you". There is no apology for his actions, no regret that he was talked down, and called out by a 15 yr old. Instead just more manipulation, trying to sell her a bill of goods. Ironically she responded with, "grandpa my hands were full of glue and paint I couldn't help anybody, I got two hrs sleep last night, and I needed to get my project done." However he already got his one sided comment in, like he did nothing wrong and she's forgiven! I take such a different perspective, and point of view when I hear and see crap go on like this in my own house. Big changes are coming. I hope the same for you and everyone else! Time to take a stand and call out their BS.
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Post by h on Oct 23, 2017 13:55:02 GMT -5
If it hadn't been for my time spent here, I wouldn't have known what DARVO was, much less recognized it. Thanks to all of you here, I was aware of what was going on and had the confidence to confront it. She didn't like it but this is probably moving towards a line in the sand for me. If she wants to fight and lie, I'll expose the lies to another friend or relative. She now knows I'm not bluffing so either she will work with me on fixing the marriage or work with me on ending it. I mentioned DARVO and boundaries to you earlier. It sounds like you are more and more aware of it when it occurs. It's taken me a long time to see it, now I'm learning how to call it out and stand up against it. Let me share an example from a few hours ago. My daughter and I are in the garage working on her school project. Grandpa opens up the garage door, and -doesn't ask- tells my daughter that she needs to come and do something for him. My daughter tells him," Not right now ,I'm kind of busy, go ask mom to do it for you". ( my daughter had glue and wet paint on her hands while her mother is sitting on her ass in the recliner at the back of the house) Grandpa responds," you don't want to help grandpa any more? you don't love me?". Well.....that ticked me off...royally!! I turned to him and said, " that is not what she said at all!! Stop twisting her words and manipulating what she said." He shut the door and nothing else was said. I turned to my daughter and said, "how did I do?" She thought it was great! I have also been having conversations with my teens , that their mother-and her brother and sister- are responsible for taking care of grandpa, not a bunch of young teens. That it is long over due for his side of the family to step up,and not force kids to be adults, nursing an elderly parent. Later in the night when my daughter is telling grandpa goodnight , I hear him whispering to her-just that whispering, deception,tells me it's more manipulation, that he can't say it out loud- sort of like our spouses not wanting to discuss the SM with anyone else-he's telling her "you know how much I love you". There is no apology for his actions, no regret that he was talked down, and called out by a 15 yr old. Instead just more manipulation, trying to sell her a bill of goods. Ironically she responded with, "grandpa my hands were full of glue and paint I couldn't help anybody, I got two hrs sleep last night, and I needed to get my project done." However he already got his one sided comment in, like he did nothing wrong and she's forgiven! I take such a different perspective, and point of view when I hear and see crap go on like this in my own house. Big changes are coming. I hope the same for you and everyone else! Time to take a stand and call out their BS. I used to just cave in to keep the peace but I'm learning to embrace the chaos of conflict and turmoil. Change will happen one way or another!
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Post by M2G on Oct 29, 2017 22:19:20 GMT -5
H - Impressive handling of difficult self absorbed manipulating family members. If you need more ammo, google "medium chill" on the site outofthefog.net
As far as your W not liking you talking about your SM with your female friend, then don't talk - just take her to a hotel..
Kidding
(I think)
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Post by h on Oct 30, 2017 9:52:46 GMT -5
H - Impressive handling of difficult self absorbed manipulating family members. If you need more ammo, google "medium chill" on the site outofthefog.net As far as your W not liking you talking about your SM with your female friend, then don't talk - just take her to a hotel.. Kidding (I think) I think what upsets her most is that it's actually HER friend. They were friends long before we started dating and she's a good enough friend to call her out on her shitty behavior.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 30, 2017 10:12:31 GMT -5
I reckon that your "best case scenario" here is that your missus might drop her external act that everything is great. It's highly unlikely that it will shift her core beliefs by one iota., but she might become a bit more selective about "who" she puts the act on for. Presumably, this mutual friend won't be one of them any more, and it will probably be strongly suggested to you that this mutual friend ought not be your confidante any longer./ W was definitely pissed that I confided in her friend and strongly implied that I should refrain from doing so in the future. I asked her who I was allowed to talk to about it since W never wanted to talk about our problems. Got no response to that. I finally think that she's figured out that I'm not going to participate in the facade any longer. The lies come tumbling down! Allow me to try a little "therapy" on you. "I asked her who I was allowed to talk to about it " STOP! What does that say to you? Think about it. Read it again next season. Was this who you where before marriage? Is that someone you wanted to be after getting married? Is that part of the marriage agreement? Does the same apply to her, and why not? "Since W never wanted to talk about our problems". Why is that? Avoidance and control, that is why. Whose problem is it? Hers. Who has been carrying the guilt and responsibility of this "problem" for years? YOU! Time to let it go. Realize you have so, so much to offer and are worthy of receiving just as much in return for the rest of your life. A gift worth striving for, for the whole family. Voice of experience talking here.
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Post by h on Oct 30, 2017 11:01:12 GMT -5
W was definitely pissed that I confided in her friend and strongly implied that I should refrain from doing so in the future. I asked her who I was allowed to talk to about it since W never wanted to talk about our problems. Got no response to that. I finally think that she's figured out that I'm not going to participate in the facade any longer. The lies come tumbling down! Allow me to try a little "therapy" on you. "I asked her who I was allowed to talk to about it " STOP! What does that say to you? Think about it. Read it again next season. Was this who you where before marriage? Is that someone you wanted to be after getting married? Is that part of the marriage agreement? Does the same apply to her, and why not? "Since W never wanted to talk about our problems". Why is that? Avoidance and control, that is why. Whose problem is it? Hers. Who has been carrying the guilt and responsibility of this "problem" for years? YOU! Time to let it go. Realize you have so, so much to offer and are worthy of receiving just as much in return for the rest of your life. A gift worth striving for, for the whole family. Voice of experience talking here. For clarification, me asking her "who I was allowed to talk to" was a rhetorical question posed to her to either incite a response or confirm a lack of one. I have no intention of allowing her to dictate who I talk to. This is NOT who I wanted to be when I got married. There is definitely a double standard in regards to talking about this topic since I know for a fact that she has discussed some of our sexual issues with at least 2 of her friends including the one that I talked to and did NOT ask for my permission to discuss our sex life. That's why I talked to the one I did, because I wasn't telling her new information, just filling in gaps. I'm finally letting go of the responsibility for this problem. It is a slow process and I am at the beginning of it but it's still progress. This year is the first time I have ever stood up for myself instead of begging and grovelling. I know now why she never wanted to talk about this because she was happy with the marriage we had as it was. I am aware that I have much to offer and deserve as much in return. I'm not really concerned about the "whole family" because we don't have any children and probably never will. I think the biggest change in myself has been that I'm now ok with the marriage ending if it must. When I first joined here, I was dead set against divorce but now, either way is fine with me.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 30, 2017 11:30:55 GMT -5
I want to share this with you (and all others who read this). Ever have things happen to you, and you think" wow! that is uncanny! I was just speaking with someone about that!"
So, -I'll try to keep it short- An elderly woman who I know and have not seen for about a year was working at a store I went to, moments ago.. I went out of my way to say " Hi, how ya doin?" It turns out the 30 ft sailing boat her and her husband lived on is in a million pieces after the hurricanes. They remain homeless and are living out of their pick up truck.
She went on to tell me about the people who offer to help them, how she refuses help, and doesn't like to talk about it. Honestly I don't think it's a pride issue. We talked some more and I lovingly said to her, " I'm no therapist but I want to share this with you, You are a very giving person who struggles greatly with receiving. You are not used to it, it's the hardest thing in the world for you isn't it? It's not how you where raised? Yet you love to give and expect others to openly receive because it seems like such a win win for everyone! Yet it's such a hard thing to do when you are now the one who deserves to receive?
She verified what I said, and told me stories of people who have helped them and how difficult it is for her and her husband.
I don't know what else to say.....except get ready for a learning experience. A time for receiving a time to heal thy self.. That's what I am struggling with.
A side note: There boat wasn't just any boat. They took an old barge and made it into a two masted pirate ship. Built for parties and weddings! An incredible piece of art work and woodworking skills. It just so happens I did a painting of their ship. I'm going to give them my original when they have a place to keep it. I so wish I could do more right now, but I can't.
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