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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 19, 2019 7:47:04 GMT -5
Capturing this for posterity.
W offered that I should go fuck other women.
She claims she feels "bad" that she is not responsive to my initiations.
She is not feeling it. She claims body image issues which have been escalated by my recent attention to health and fitness. She thinks I have or am preparing to have another woman.
When I asked her on a separate occasion if she really wanted me to get a GF, she said I was nuts.
Then, a few days after she said I was nuts, when she felt like I was butt hurt afte she shut down an initiation, she again brought up the issue of sleeping with someone else. Saying that if I experienced sexual release elsewhere, I wouldnt be frustrated.
Im a little bummed. Have thought a lot of things. From maybe this is a reperessed kink to she has someone else and feels guilt to this would give her physical impetus tonpush for divorce.
Im not open to the idea of fucking someone else although I do remember feeling like this is a solution at one point in the past few years.
To add intrigue. An old GF from way back in ancient times has again reached out. I can only guess she is testing the waters to see if things will get physical since this has been discussed before. She is very attractive but not my type sexually. Back in the day when we were fucking, I thought I was punching way above my weight class with her. Sometimes I wonder if I should just push through with it. Like it will somehow magically break a spell.
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Post by workingonit on Aug 19, 2019 10:01:08 GMT -5
Proceed with serious caution. Our refusers do not view sex as a source of connection. We, generally, do. She thinks you just need a "release" to not be frustrated. But what you want is more than that- more than she can possibly understand. Her "permission" is not to get what you are missing but to get what she mistakenly believes you need.
This does not seem that it would end well, IMO.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 19, 2019 10:23:02 GMT -5
Our refusers do not view sex as a source of connection. We, generally, do. Interesting perspective. Begs the question if Ive been so naive all this time. If you read some of my back story, you would see that we used to be very sexually active. Was it all just a ruse? I just dont know in my current state. Her comment has thrown me off. I was headed well into DGAF territory and our "relationship" or whats left of it seemed to be trending neutral to positive most of the time. Then something like this shakes things up for me.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 20, 2019 14:16:36 GMT -5
Then, a few days after she said I was nuts, when she felt like I was butt hurt afte she shut down an initiation, she again brought up the issue of sleeping with someone else. Saying that if I experienced sexual release elsewhere, I wouldnt be frustrated. Im a little bummed. Have thought a lot of things. From maybe this is a reperessed kink to she has someone else and feels guilt to this would give her physical impetus tonpush for divorce. This is exactly what my wife said to me, repeatedly, when she was having her affair. Cuckqueans (women who have a kink in which their partners have sex with other women), don't present in this way. It's almost always in a BDSM context and it's almost always something they themselves want to be a part of. My Spidey-Sense says that she's looking for absolution for an affair, or permission. By setting you up, she's paving the way to hamstring your moral objections and put you on equal footing. I can say, clear as anything, from my own personal experience on both sides of an affair and/or a consensual non-monogamy situation - it's pleasant to have sex with people who want to have sex with you - but it does not release you from the misery at home. If anything, it puts a spotlight on it, in the comparison. At some point, the votes are in and the election needs to be called.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 20, 2019 19:13:21 GMT -5
Well...its the first thought that popped into my mind when she said it. Absolution for an affair. And I got the affair vibe at other times. So Im prepared for that if its ever discovered. The problem is the schedule. W's schedule is basically work to home and its part time. Rest of the time is kids appointments or activities. The blindspot is her employment. But she doesnt work in an office. Its a very public venue. And W really like her job. Knowing her, its hard to see that she would risk her credibility or job that way. Everybody knows when affairs are going on at work The likeliest scenario is an emotional affair at work that is on the cusp. Or an affair that happened in the past. We spent a year in separate bedrooms. We grew very distant during this time but still had sex and affection on occasion. I didnt really pay attention to her coming and going during this time. Generally yes, but not where there might have been a few hours here and there where she might have been "shopping" or with "friends" Im not going to worry myself about it. I confronted her numerous times, each time she has said no. If she did have an affair, and she chooses not to disclose. Thats on her. If anyone has been in this situation before and has advice or feels I should consider handling things differently, Im all ears Then, a few days after she said I was nuts, when she felt like I was butt hurt afte she shut down an initiation, she again brought up the issue of sleeping with someone else. Saying that if I experienced sexual release elsewhere, I wouldnt be frustrated. Im a little bummed. Have thought a lot of things. From maybe this is a reperessed kink to she has someone else and feels guilt to this would give her physical impetus tonpush for divorce. This is exactly what my wife said to me, repeatedly, when she was having her affair. Cuckqueans (women who have a kink in which their partners have sex with other women), don't present in this way. It's almost always in a BDSM context and it's almost always something they themselves want to be a part of. My Spidey-Sense says that she's looking for absolution for an affair, or permission. By setting you up, she's paving the way to hamstring your moral objections and put you on equal footing. I can say, clear as anything, from my own personal experience on both sides of an affair and/or a consensual non-monogamy situation - it's pleasant to have sex with people who want to have sex with you - but it does not release you from the misery at home. If anything, it puts a spotlight on it, in the comparison. At some point, the votes are in and the election needs to be called.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 21, 2019 9:41:07 GMT -5
If anyone has been in this situation before and has advice or feels I should consider handling things differently, Im all ears Daddeeo? I've been away for a long time, but need to catch up here. What is marriage bringing to the table in your situation? What are the criteria that you feel would be an appropriate trigger to make further changes in your life? This doesn't exactly count as advice, but it's an anecdote from my own marriage. In one of the many times I'd been complaining about our lack of physical intimacy, and going over her own affair - which she really never repented for or apologized for, she said,"Look, I've ALSO been in a celibate relationship." I took the bait and stupidly pointed out that she was fully in control of how much sex she had in this relationship. Had both of us - especially me - been a bit smarter than we were - we might have realized what had just been said, and the significance of it. She was saying (though not fully cognizant) that she was just as trapped as me, because her husband was not someone she wanted. AND that she felt herself the hero in the situation by choosing an affair and/or celibacy over a split, and ending the family. AND that her heroism and celibacy entitled her to do whatever she felt she needed to do to be happy (like engage in affairs). If I look back at that time and how much the thought of cheating crossed my own mind, I would likely have defended it by saying "What did you expect would happen?" But in light of her comment, I think she was really using the same justification. If it's some kind of catastrophic inevitability that someone is going to crack, and that there will be feelings of justification on either side for doing so -- maybe it's just helpful for both to step back and have a frank conversation about where this is all going -- and how you want to go about going there. If you eventually want love in your life, imagine a future in which you two are separated. If you have kids, you are likely to be in each others' lives for quite some time. What do you want that experience or relationship to be? How does that jive with the mutually cheating shoals that you are pointed at? I get the sense, Daddeeo, that the time between then and now has allowed you to come to some acceptance or resignation over a lot of this. Is there a way the two of you can talk about your intentions, without it going nuclear, so you can achieve a less destructive result and position you both for success?
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 21, 2019 13:37:04 GMT -5
There is a lot of wisdom in these here words. Thanks for sharing your insights. Im pretty sure your posts have a lot of fans in the ILIASM community Not only because of the experience you bring to the table, but also because of the direct and rationale approach and the articulation of your narrative is pleasing. You ask about love. Some perspective. When I was single, I lived through romantic experiences that left me questioning whether my expectations of romantic love and what that entailed in a relationship were realistic. I came to the conclusion that my minimum expectations were not realistic and I wasnt ready to compromise. So I decided that I would stick to seeking out sexual partners that shared my admittedly vanilla but adventurous penchant for sex. When I met W. I felt sexually we were a great match. I had never felt physically with anyone like I did with her. But alas it was not to last. I met her in a foreign country and my time there was up. We left it at that, remaining in touch. As I returned to my "regular" life back home, I found I was unable to shake the feeling of longing to be with her. I couldnt explain it. It wasnt love in the romantic sense, but more like a friendship and of course strong infatuation. I really enjoyed being with her, talking to her. So we talked about it and made the decision to get married so she could join me. I didnt know if it would work out, so I had low expectations. We had our ups and downs, but over 20 years we made a life together and the love absolutley grew. It was mostly good, but definitely tumultuous at times. Sex was very strong for about a dozen years. Then "okay" for about 3 years after that. But since then its trended toward sexlessness (10x or less). We still have sex. Currently about 1x month or 2 months. Long story short, I think Ive come full circle and Im doubtful on romantic love and my expectations of it. I dont believe its realistic. So what value does she add to my life? Well we do have that shared history and memories. We do have 4 children. I do enjoy her company. Our values and moral codes are in alignment. And despite the ravages of time and aging I am still attracted to her. From what I can surmise, somewhere along the way she lost the emotional connection and attraction but is firmly invested in the family (your hero concept). Now in the past year, I connected the dots, and have attempted to course correct. Initially it was very overt, very forced and it resulted in hysterical bonding for about a month of great sex before she snapped and we got into another rut. More recently, for my sanity, I decided to focus less on the relationship and more on me and my happiness. Disconnecting if you will. Well this seemed to have the effect of catching her attention, but not to the point of returning to sex at will. Its where we are at now. A co-habiting, co-parenting arrangement with bouts of affection followed by pulling away at times. Hot and cold if you will. In fact we have had a few enjoyable date nights. Now the optimist in me would say that this might be reasonable behavior for this stage and nature of relationship. Like she feels the tug of the relationship but she is not sure. She still harbors the image that caused her to lose attraction in the first place. Im giving it time. Ive listed my reasons for staying. But like you say, things cant stay like this indefinitley. Im moving forward regardless. I like the changes Im making, which are a derivative by product of the introspection the relationship has forced. While I would love for her to continue to be by my side, it would have to be under acceptable terms of engagement (i.e. trust, communication, sex and all that). My approach to focus on me (as opposed to the relationship) is a little bit unorthodox. She may find the changes attractive or she may not. I dont care to negotiate her desire or establish covert contracts (hey look at me, I have muscles do you want to fuck me now?). Lastly I will say this about communication in relationships. While rationale discussion about wants and needs sounds good on paper and keeps marriage counselors employed, I have serious doubts that most couples are able to pull this off. It assumes both parties are self aware enough to know what they want and need, and subsequently, can act in a way that is congruent with those requirements. Again it sounds nice, but I think its a huge assumption to make. I believe accepting this fact presents challenges and manifests as cognitive dissonance to highly rational individuals. So what are we left with? We are all imperfect. We all have scars. These scars and imperfections lead us to act in non-linear ways and perhaps irrational ways when it comes to relationships. I think the main question is to what extent, if at all, are we willing to tolerate and accept irrational behavior from our partners. And to what extent can those boundaries be enforced healthfully within the confines of the relationship. Even this assumes some level of self awareness. Is there a way to talk about intentions, without going nuclear? At this point in time, my belief says that in general, no. Maybe highly aware, and highly congruent couples. But I think those are rare. For the rest of us, I think you watch their actions. Actions speak louder than their words ever will. And vice versa. Dont explain or rationalize what you will or wont do. Just act on it and see what happens. If you want to initiate sex, initiate. If you want to divorce, divorce. If you are offended, enforce boundaries. If you have been offensive, own up to it. If anyone has been in this situation before and has advice or feels I should consider handling things differently, Im all ears Daddeeo? I've been away for a long time, but need to catch up here. What is marriage bringing to the table in your situation? What are the criteria that you feel would be an appropriate trigger to make further changes in your life? This doesn't exactly count as advice, but it's an anecdote from my own marriage. In one of the many times I'd been complaining about our lack of physical intimacy, and going over her own affair - which she really never repented for or apologized for, she said,"Look, I've ALSO been in a celibate relationship." I took the bait and stupidly pointed out that she was fully in control of how much sex she had in this relationship. Had both of us - especially me - been a bit smarter than we were - we might have realized what had just been said, and the significance of it. She was saying (though not fully cognizant) that she was just as trapped as me, because her husband was not someone she wanted. AND that she felt herself the hero in the situation by choosing an affair and/or celibacy over a split, and ending the family. AND that her heroism and celibacy entitled her to do whatever she felt she needed to do to be happy (like engage in affairs). If I look back at that time and how much the thought of cheating crossed my own mind, I would likely have defended it by saying "What did you expect would happen?" But in light of her comment, I think she was really using the same justification. If it's some kind of catastrophic inevitability that someone is going to crack, and that there will be feelings of justification on either side for doing so -- maybe it's just helpful for both to step back and have a frank conversation about where this is all going -- and how you want to go about going there. If you eventually want love in your life, imagine a future in which you two are separated. If you have kids, you are likely to be in each others' lives for quite some time. What do you want that experience or relationship to be? How does that jive with the mutually cheating shoals that you are pointed at? I get the sense, Daddeeo, that the time between then and now has allowed you to come to some acceptance or resignation over a lot of this. Is there a way the two of you can talk about your intentions, without it going nuclear, so you can achieve a less destructive result and position you both for success?
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 21, 2019 16:08:10 GMT -5
Long story short, I think Ive come full circle and Im doubtful on romantic love and my expectations of it. I dont believe its realistic. So what value does she add to my life? Well we do have that shared history and memories. We do have 4 children. I do enjoy her company. Our values and moral codes are in alignment. And despite the ravages of time and aging I am still attracted to her. [...] Is there a way to talk about intentions, without going nuclear? At this point in time, my belief says that in general, no. Maybe highly aware, and highly congruent couples. But I think those are rare. For the rest of us, I think you watch their actions. Actions speak louder than their words ever will. And vice versa. Dont explain or rationalize what you will or wont do. Just act on it and see what happens. If you want to initiate sex, initiate. If you want to divorce, divorce. If you are offended, enforce boundaries. If you have been offensive, own up to it. Daddeeo? I've been away for a long time, but need to catch up here. What is marriage bringing to the table in your situation? What are the criteria that you feel would be an appropriate trigger to make further changes in your life? That's cool, but I didn't ask you to justify your attraction to her, nor to recount her virtues. I asked w hat is marriage bringing to the table in your situation? That's a really different question. In your life, you meet all kinds of people who you have an attraction for, and all kinds of people who have virtues and with whom you have long term invested relationships- but you aren't married to all of them of them. Similarly, among couples with children who become ex-spouses, those spouses are still frequently in each others' lives for a very long time. In fact, due to the market realities in my very expensive metropolitan city, we have a "close separation" in which our finances are still merged and I live in the house with the kids, and she lives up the street in an apartment. I allow generous access to the house on "her days" and we have a spare bedroom set up, as well as house rules. Is there a way to talk about intentions without going nuclear? It depends on what nuclear is. It's a reasonable fear - for me - nuclear suggests lawyering up and doing a traditional divorce (which I will also have one day) But it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to go there. It is a risk, for sure. But at this point, with infidelity swirling around you two, and agendas of third parties and the volatile feelings that go with that, it's likely to go nuclear in an unmanaged way anyway, so your risks are about even - simply with the reasonable suspicions on both your parts. You can and will still have a relationship with this person. I can still be an intimate relationship in many ways. It will involve a dropping of pretense though, and a shared idea of the future, as well as your present endeavor. What does a positive split look like for the two of you that allows you to preserve some of what you enjoy in your association, while detaching the disappointment and effort that comes from expectations and keeping up appearances? It's a question I really had to ask myself and ask Mrs Apocrypha as well. How is our marriage, really, different from that of an amicable separation? What's in it for me? What's in it for her? Sure, there's great personal qualities we both have that might justify intellectually an interest or some form of association. But is that unique? It's clear if sex is still an issue that the desire for you is not there and that this is not a mutual feeling. That's an ENORMOUS drain of energy on you. A daily reminder of failure and humiliation that isn't necessary, but for which there will be a cost to changing. Is it better than associating with each other as single people, so you can each have room for love in your lives? You can maintain a relationship while having split economic interests. You can split while having shared economic interests. You can share economic interests with a business partner with whom you have little other association as well. You can co-parent while being married. You can co-parent while being divorced. You can be flexible on how much association you have with each other in family activities after a divorce (consider ex-spouses who associate on kids birthdays, holidays etc). Some spouses are married and take little to no interest in any of those things. So the whole "marriage package" isn't some monolithic block. A lot of it is really about the way you two intentionally construct your relationship. What's marriage bringing to the table vs what's it costing you?
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 22, 2019 7:28:00 GMT -5
My 90 day reboot finished today. Im about 25 pounds lighter although Ive probably added 2-3 pounds of muscle. Mostly in my legs.
More importantly, my mindset has pivoted as I had hoped. I still have my off days, but a good sign is that the ratio of awesome days to off days has skyrocketed.
In my introspection, Ive also had to face some hard truths. Some related to my past, long suppressed by time. But also, Ive had to examine my role in the dynamics of this relationship. In particular, validation seeking behaviour, neediness, anxiety, and others that played part in our dynamics. Im trying to confront these head on. Not to save my relationship per se. But to give an opportunity to healthy dynamics to any future relationship.
FWIW, Ill offer the following as a lesson learned during this time of reflection.
Changing oneself is never easy going. And once you do change for the good, the point of no return if you will, those that surround you may not continue to travel along the same path as the new you. That should not be a deterrent. What a man can be, he must be. Come what may. This is self actualization.
And one last thing. Dont let the bastards drag you down.
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Post by csl on Aug 22, 2019 11:12:55 GMT -5
Okay, I feel like a total idiot, but I need to barge in with a shame-faced correction that is totally unrelated to the current drift. Please forgive this, but on the second page of this thread, northstarmom asked me to post a link to how Wife and I used scheduling sex to rekindle our marriage bed. I made a post, but I just discovered this morning that the link was incorrect. I profusely apologize, and have corrected the link in that post. But to make sure that anyone reading through this thread finds what they were looking for two years ago, here is the link I intended: The Why and How of Our Now, part 1. Again, my apologies.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 22, 2019 19:42:39 GMT -5
Yeah you are an idiot. Go edit the original post and update the link there. Okay, I feel like a total idiot, but I need to barge in with a shame-faced correction that is totally unrelated to the current drift. Please forgive this, but on the second page of this thread, northstarmom asked me to post a link to how Wife and I used scheduling sex to rekindle our marriage bed. I made a post, but I just discovered this morning that the link was incorrect. I profusely apologize, and have corrected the link in that post. But to make sure that anyone reading through this thread finds what they were looking for two years ago, here is the link I intended: The Why and How of Our Now, part 1. Again, my apologies.
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Post by csl on Aug 22, 2019 21:39:29 GMT -5
Yeah you are an idiot. Go edit the original post and update the link there. Okay, I feel like a total idiot, but I need to barge in with a shame-faced correction that is totally unrelated to the current drift. Please forgive this, but on the second page of this thread, northstarmom asked me to post a link to how Wife and I used scheduling sex to rekindle our marriage bed. I made a post, but I just discovered this morning that the link was incorrect. I profusely apologize, and have corrected the link in that post. But to make sure that anyone reading through this thread finds what they were looking for two years ago, here is the link I intended: The Why and How of Our Now, part 1. Again, my apologies. Did that too, but I am apologizing for two years of "oh fer dumb" on my part.
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Post by Handy on Aug 22, 2019 21:42:43 GMT -5
CSL, I for one don't mind you making a correction this late on this thread.
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Post by flashjohn on Aug 26, 2019 13:48:55 GMT -5
Capturing this for posterity. W offered that I should go fuck other women. She claims she feels "bad" that she is not responsive to my initiations. She is not feeling it. She claims body image issues which have been escalated by my recent attention to health and fitness. She thinks I have or am preparing to have another woman. When I asked her on a separate occasion if she really wanted me to get a GF, she said I was nuts. Then, a few days after she said I was nuts, when she felt like I was butt hurt afte she shut down an initiation, she again brought up the issue of sleeping with someone else. Saying that if I experienced sexual release elsewhere, I wouldnt be frustrated. Im a little bummed. Have thought a lot of things. From maybe this is a reperessed kink to she has someone else and feels guilt to this would give her physical impetus tonpush for divorce. Im not open to the idea of fucking someone else although I do remember feeling like this is a solution at one point in the past few years. To add intrigue. An old GF from way back in ancient times has again reached out. I can only guess she is testing the waters to see if things will get physical since this has been discussed before. She is very attractive but not my type sexually. Back in the day when we were fucking, I thought I was punching way above my weight class with her. Sometimes I wonder if I should just push through with it. Like it will somehow magically break a spell.
Get it in writing. A text message would work. Then fuck the old GF. This will help you handle the situation until you are ready for a divorce
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Post by workingonit on Sept 3, 2019 8:20:13 GMT -5
Long story short, I think Ive come full circle and Im doubtful on romantic love and my expectations of it. I dont believe its realistic. So what value does she add to my life? Well we do have that shared history and memories. We do have 4 children. I do enjoy her company. Our values and moral codes are in alignment. And despite the ravages of time and aging I am still attracted to her. [...] Is there a way to talk about intentions, without going nuclear? At this point in time, my belief says that in general, no. Maybe highly aware, and highly congruent couples. But I think those are rare. For the rest of us, I think you watch their actions. Actions speak louder than their words ever will. And vice versa. Dont explain or rationalize what you will or wont do. Just act on it and see what happens. If you want to initiate sex, initiate. If you want to divorce, divorce. If you are offended, enforce boundaries. If you have been offensive, own up to it. That's cool, but I didn't ask you to justify your attraction to her, nor to recount her virtues. I asked w hat is marriage bringing to the table in your situation? That's a really different question. In your life, you meet all kinds of people who you have an attraction for, and all kinds of people who have virtues and with whom you have long term invested relationships- but you aren't married to all of them of them. Similarly, among couples with children who become ex-spouses, those spouses are still frequently in each others' lives for a very long time. In fact, due to the market realities in my very expensive metropolitan city, we have a "close separation" in which our finances are still merged and I live in the house with the kids, and she lives up the street in an apartment. I allow generous access to the house on "her days" and we have a spare bedroom set up, as well as house rules. Is there a way to talk about intentions without going nuclear? It depends on what nuclear is. It's a reasonable fear - for me - nuclear suggests lawyering up and doing a traditional divorce (which I will also have one day) But it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to go there. It is a risk, for sure. But at this point, with infidelity swirling around you two, and agendas of third parties and the volatile feelings that go with that, it's likely to go nuclear in an unmanaged way anyway, so your risks are about even - simply with the reasonable suspicions on both your parts. You can and will still have a relationship with this person. I can still be an intimate relationship in many ways. It will involve a dropping of pretense though, and a shared idea of the future, as well as your present endeavor. What does a positive split look like for the two of you that allows you to preserve some of what you enjoy in your association, while detaching the disappointment and effort that comes from expectations and keeping up appearances? It's a question I really had to ask myself and ask Mrs Apocrypha as well. How is our marriage, really, different from that of an amicable separation? What's in it for me? What's in it for her? Sure, there's great personal qualities we both have that might justify intellectually an interest or some form of association. But is that unique? It's clear if sex is still an issue that the desire for you is not there and that this is not a mutual feeling. That's an ENORMOUS drain of energy on you. A daily reminder of failure and humiliation that isn't necessary, but for which there will be a cost to changing. Is it better than associating with each other as single people, so you can each have room for love in your lives? You can maintain a relationship while having split economic interests. You can split while having shared economic interests. You can share economic interests with a business partner with whom you have little other association as well. You can co-parent while being married. You can co-parent while being divorced. You can be flexible on how much association you have with each other in family activities after a divorce (consider ex-spouses who associate on kids birthdays, holidays etc). Some spouses are married and take little to no interest in any of those things. So the whole "marriage package" isn't some monolithic block. A lot of it is really about the way you two intentionally construct your relationship. What's marriage bringing to the table vs what's it costing you? This is a powerful set of questions. To answer them honestly is far more about us than our partners. Why di we stay? Really. What is the marriage giving us? We are all getting something or we would not still be here. This is precisely what I am thinking about these days.
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