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Post by h on May 4, 2017 7:00:31 GMT -5
Do y'all think I just come here to lie to get my jollies? A while back I was asked if I knew of any refuser who had changed and I proceeded to start enumerating ones I could recall off the top of my head. On my blog page, the bottom of the sidebar are several links, and one of those bloggers is a former refuser. She writes for wives struggling with sex and desire issues now. So, yes, change is possible. I read many of those sites. That's why I always used to hold on to hope that it was possible. Holding onto those thin stands of hope is pretty hard when your spouse is only holding on to scissors.
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Post by h on May 4, 2017 7:32:37 GMT -5
Well here is where I was - What is great and what is not so great. About a 1000 revisions - like digging into an Infinity "Onion" - peel a layer and there is a new layer . . . ad infinitum. My recently divorced buddy put it to me like this when I said "I had not tried enough" He looked at me and said. "Well the only way for sure you know you will have tried at 100% is when you are dead." Up until now, I believed that my W understood my needs, sympathized with me, cared enough to occasionally meet my needs, and just let other things get in the way too often. Now, it is clear that she doesn't understand my needs at all, her lack of understanding means she is incapable of sympathy, her lack of effort in trying to understand me means she doesn't care enough to bother, and she is probably grateful for (and intentionally creates) many of the issues that get in the way of meeting my needs. Over the last year or so, I have tried to explain my feelings to her through direct conversation and through written letters. When I didn't get through, I thought maybe I just didn't know the right words to use that would adequately express my feelings. I bought several marriage and sex oriented books. I read them and learned many things that I could do to help the relationship improve and I tried to put those things into practice. I asked her to read just one of the books but she accused me of just buying books for her to show her how she was wrong and trying to "fix her" to get more sex. I explained to her that it was a marriage book to help us communicate better and while there is a chapter on sex, that it wasn't the whole book. She claimed she was too busy and refused. I asked again and showed her how the book wasn't very long and had larger than average print so it wouldn't take much time or effort to read. Still too much for her. BTW, if anyone wants the book list, PM me. They really are great books if both partners are actually interested in trying to work it out. Most of them are intended for a Christian audience but an open minded atheist could still glean some helpful bits.
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fred
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Post by fred on May 4, 2017 8:04:09 GMT -5
I'm new to the site. Married, very little intimacy, but not interested in divorce. It has been suggested to me by several users and without going into too many details, suffice it to say: I have weighed the pros and cons and have found divorce to be a less desirable option at this time. If things change for the worse, I will reevaluate that decision but not at this time. What I am more interested in now are ways to cope with living in an otherwise good relationship except for the very limited sex life. In all other areas of our life together, things are good or at least ok. I am not yet willing to give up entirely. Any thoughts? I have no affirmative recommendations, but i can recommend that you avoid my coping strategy of choice which was heavy drinking. Sorry to say this but if sex is "very" important to you as opposed to just important.............then RUN. I didn't when I could and now I have decades of bitternes built up in me and it really pervades all aspects of my life. I don't drink or drug but think that that could help for very brief periods. No answers except "should have bailed when I could" I hurt for you. fred
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 8:28:32 GMT -5
H., Many of us on here have children. My wife did not start the removal of sex until 4-5 years ago. This was after 18 years of marriage. I have kids now and I have to take this into account in dealing with my relationship. You only have yourself. If my wife would have pulled the same thing 5-6 years in my marriage, I would have been out the door. You need to get out while you can before she traps you by getting pregnant. Your wife has no desire for improving. When you plan on leaving, don't be surprised if she wants sex when she's ovulating. Ask yourself, if this is the kind of life you want for the next 20 years? Take a moment and sit down and think how you'll feel. Each year that goes by, it'll get harder and harder to leave. There is a fallacy called the Sunk Cost Fallacy . It's a very common fallacy that people use in investments and relationships. www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.htmlInstead of having anger towards your wife, develop an attitude of apathy. Everything is raw right now but if you can start working on yourself and not taking the relationship personally, you'll be a lot better off. You'll never control your wife and she sees no need to change. It's only you that needs to change. The first thing is to disengage from the marriage and get perspective on what's keeping you in your marriage. More than likely it's issues that have nothing to do with your wife.
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Post by GeekGoddess on May 4, 2017 8:53:33 GMT -5
Options: Get a vasectomy. She won't have to worry about getting pregnant & this could potentially double the times per month she's a willing participant. If she somehow hoped you two would procreate someday, then there really are a lot of other options for her to use birth control (though I took control of my own b.c. & it may or may not be smart to trust the refuser spouse on something like this). Counseling- joint & single. If she won't go to couple counselor then I'd believe she's entirely happy with once a month. Which leads us to: The only thing you can control is your own attitude. If you can, learn to accept that you will always have a marriage that has an asterisk.... "everything is great! *(well except the sex)" and she will have a marriage that she is, without exception, very happy with. Other possibilities: You can outsource. Paid prostitution or Tinder hookup or other free dating sites if you the "long term affair" approach. You can talk to her about a side relationship (that is: it lets her "off the hook" 3 out of 4 weekends a month). Or don't bring it up if she isn't likely to agree (don't want to "let on" if you think she wouldn't go for it) Either - she wants to change & if so, counseling may be effective. Or - she doesn't want to & in that case, your attitude is the only thing you have any influence on. I hate to be brutal but you are proposing Vasectomy, others proposed getting fat and reducing libido . . . Why not just be totally sure and go for CASTRATION ? ! ! Go visit Prostitutes? Well the risks are statistically low of catching HIV with proper condom use but again . . . COPING MECHANISMS and SELF-DENIAL. Look per my experience these are all roads to the Insane Asylum or worse. I hope I am not sounding judgmental - I mean this as one that took many of these paths and I am only sharing and warning in good faith what happened to me - maybe your experience will be different. Simple suggestion: Pray and gather COURAGE and be "RIGOROUSLY HONEST" with yourself . . . AKA "sorting your shit out". My response was aligned with the Jonathon Swift approach used in A Modest Proposal - - sarcasm, satire, I don't know the right term for it...but overstating something to the point of absurdity in order to highlight how absurd the question is to me. There is no way in hell that I will pursue a living situation which requires me to actively reduce a human urge for closeness. To do so is to not live at all. (For me)
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Post by novembercomingfire on May 4, 2017 9:42:50 GMT -5
I hate to be brutal but you are proposing Vasectomy, others proposed getting fat and reducing libido . . . Why not just be totally sure and go for CASTRATION ? ! ! Go visit Prostitutes? Well the risks are statistically low of catching HIV with proper condom use but again . . . COPING MECHANISMS and SELF-DENIAL. Look per my experience these are all roads to the Insane Asylum or worse. I hope I am not sounding judgmental - I mean this as one that took many of these paths and I am only sharing and warning in good faith what happened to me - maybe your experience will be different. Simple suggestion: Pray and gather COURAGE and be "RIGOROUSLY HONEST" with yourself . . . AKA "sorting your shit out". My response was aligned with the Jonathon Swift approach used in A Modest Proposal - - sarcasm, satire, I don't know the right term for it...but overstating something to the point of absurdity in order to highlight how absurd the question is to me. There is no way in hell that I will pursue a living situation which requires me to actively reduce a human urge for closeness. To do so is to not live at all. (For me) Yes! This. I have spent too many years pretending that everything was ok enough that I could live with it. As difficult as it is for me right now, and no matter how much damage i have done to myself for years in denying my needs for the sake of someone else's feelings, i have had enough with anything that requires me to deny my authentic self. It may be too late for me, and i may be alone for the rest of my life, but at least i am reaching the point where i recognize that the life i am living isn't really living if i have to pretend not to want intimacy as a condition of staying partnered.
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Post by novembercomingfire on May 4, 2017 9:44:03 GMT -5
I have no affirmative recommendations, but i can recommend that you avoid my coping strategy of choice which was heavy drinking. Sorry to say this but if sex is "very" important to you as opposed to just important.............then RUN. I didn't when I could and now I have decades of bitternes built up in me and it really pervades all aspects of my life. I don't drink or drug but think that that could help for very brief periods. No answers except "should have bailed when I could" I hurt for you. fred I should have bailed when i could as well. I know of this all pervasive bitterness of which you speak ... but now there is no alcohol to mask the unhappiness.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 4, 2017 9:54:39 GMT -5
Omg! This is an incredible story of self-awareness that we just don't see. Maybe the world isn't flat, Tupac isn't dead. Lol I'm sorrry - I'm not intending to diminish anything you're saying. Truly incredible that you recognized this in that relationship. I'm sorry that you're where you're at today, but, at least you know that this isn't necessarily "it". A two-party, sex-full, monogamous relationship IS possible. Lovely personal anecdote! Granted it's possible. (personal testimony here). Two years of marriage therapy, offering marriage recovery programs, (they advertise some 84% recovery rate based on 2 years of follow up.... only 2 yrs?) out of state, in state, thousands of dollars etc.... All rejected on the excuse that I would not improve, and that the only thing that would be addressed where her problems, (intimacy/sex and control) so she did not want any change. ( I feel that put us in the other 16%) One of my favorite books is "Boundaries in Marriage" a real eye opener for me. It helped me understand my need to set boundaries and enforce them. That I have every right to stand up for myself. The negative side of this book is how much it talks about remaining married , to the point of leaving the house, seeking shelter, living with a friend, until the "non-conforming spouse" sees the problems with their ways. Great points about suffering, learning from mistakes, trials and tribulations, build character and strength, patience and wisdom gained from forgiveness. I get it, boy do I get it!! However it wasn't until page 256, ( the last page of the book, like the fine print in a contract!) I will Quote it: "And, finally there are the people who have done the right thing, who have taken a stand for good, and who have been rejected. They have suffered for their stand. To an abusive or addictive spouse, they may have stood up and said, "this is not right"." And the outcome was partially good: the abuse or the afliction of pain stopped. But the abusive spouse did not heed the discipline but turned against them. These people gained freeedom from evil but love eluded them. They had to find love and support from their friends, and their communities. To these people are hearts go out. You have done well and you have suffered. May God bless you for your courage and perseverance. There are self-serving people who use boundaries to continue in denial and blame. They don't remove the log from their own eye and seek to control themselves; instead they blame others, and try to control them. Look to yourself first before blaming others, and make sure that you do not fall into this group. Then take a stand for what is right, and good, all the while guarding against using your freedom as an opportunity for selfishness." I believe this group, and myself, fall in the 16% category.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 4, 2017 10:04:19 GMT -5
Do y'all think I just come here to lie to get my jollies? A while back I was asked if I knew of any refuser who had changed and I proceeded to start enumerating ones I could recall off the top of my head. On my blog page, the bottom of the sidebar are several links, and one of those bloggers is a former refuser. She writes for wives struggling with sex and desire issues now. So, yes, change is possible. Count me in as another one, though I distrust the term "refuser" and wouldn't have called myself that. Prior to my marriage, I was also in a long term relationship in which I was intimacy-averse. I recall the mindset very easily, and am verging on the edge of that now, though it's less noticeable in my post-marriage singledom. And, I changed - it was a huge shift in perspective. It's part of the reason why I went to the lengths I did to save my own marriage. In a way, I felt I owed it, and because I was able to do it, I thought anyone would. I recall the various mental processes I went through to get there.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 4, 2017 11:01:47 GMT -5
Spent the last hour looking up counseling services in my area. Everything has been good and we had been getting along better this week. We talked and laughed at things together and had been more affectionate. Just had my Rose colored glasses slapped off my face though. W posts some BS flowery picture on Facebook that says: "Love is not about sex, going on fancy dates, or showing off. It's about being with a person who makes you happy in a way nobody else can." Naturally I gave it a "sad face" reaction but left it at that. She asked why. I told her that the very first line of it was just awful. W: Is that what you think, that love is just about sex? Me: Sex isn't all of love but it is a big part of it, included in it. The fact that you think it's not is just awful. Silence the rest of the night. I went to bed and she stayed up. She never came in to bed and I heard her go into the other bedroom. I think tomorrow things will be said that may possibly start the downward spiral to the end. She showed her true colors tonight. Sex will never be important to her. My sexuality is a big part of what makes me the man I am so who I am as a man must not be very important to her. So angry I can't sleep. Work tomorrow is going to suck. By doing this on facebook rather than having the discussion directly with you, she is posing this issue as having the importance of greeting-card verse, and is seeking external validation (through likes) of empty sentiment. Her design is to reinforce the righteousness of mindset by framing this as a battle between love and sex, posing her in the role of a person who is offering a "higher love". In Mrs. Apocrypha's mindset, this was "her best love", and I was rejecting it. Sex, she could have with just anyone - and did (though she wouldn't post that on her facebook). But what she was offering me was much more valuable. In essence, she's posing YOUR argument for including sex as, at best, unimportant, and at worst, selfish and lewd. She's shaming you. And doing it on facebook. I've seen my friends do this, and I instantly know they are in marital distress. Here's another way to frame that - and I think it's a more accurate narrative. It's easy to hide romantic aversion to a person (often as a result of contempt or disgust), as a higher love, by cloaking it in the chaffe of "but everything else is great". You fill your life with activities, work, recreation - all the things you would have skipped to have sex before, or in addition to. When everything else is great "except for the sex", it's interesting how conspicuous that ONE lack can be, along with the constant intention (such as posting greeting card verse about love) on facebook to others, to direct one's attention away from that absence. It's not actually hard to have sex. People who want to have sex with each other have it under the most unlikely and difficult situations, and often incur terrible risks and consequences to do so. So the more accurate narrative in her case is not so much about how important it is to have "love" (and there is always such a thing as non-romantic love and intimacy), but rather how important it is to AVOID sex with you, and also to justify and normalize that avoidance. She is (apparently) overriding her own normal libido to avoid sex with you. BUT EVERYTHING IS FINE! Yes, all those things are lovely, and are part of a romantic connection, but you don't need to be married to have them. Your whole body is screaming because it knows she is fooling herself and she is trying to fool you. She'd throw it out to facebook to seek approval rather than discuss it with you. While at the same time, telegraphing to her network that she doesn't want to have sex with you. Your unhappy face in the response to her post is a shot across the bow that you will not let her handwave this as casual, unimportant discussion among friends. It introduces the idea that you might actually respond to it authentically in whatever forum she chooses to raise it. Including in public.
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Post by h on May 4, 2017 11:49:17 GMT -5
Spent the last hour looking up counseling services in my area. Everything has been good and we had been getting along better this week. We talked and laughed at things together and had been more affectionate. Just had my Rose colored glasses slapped off my face though. W posts some BS flowery picture on Facebook that says: "Love is not about sex, going on fancy dates, or showing off. It's about being with a person who makes you happy in a way nobody else can." Naturally I gave it a "sad face" reaction but left it at that. She asked why. I told her that the very first line of it was just awful. W: Is that what you think, that love is just about sex? Me: Sex isn't all of love but it is a big part of it, included in it. The fact that you think it's not is just awful. Silence the rest of the night. I went to bed and she stayed up. She never came in to bed and I heard her go into the other bedroom. I think tomorrow things will be said that may possibly start the downward spiral to the end. She showed her true colors tonight. Sex will never be important to her. My sexuality is a big part of what makes me the man I am so who I am as a man must not be very important to her. So angry I can't sleep. Work tomorrow is going to suck. By doing this on facebook rather than having the discussion directly with you, she is posing this issue as having the importance of greeting-card verse, and is seeking external validation (through likes) of empty sentiment. Her design is to reinforce the righteousness of mindset by framing this as a battle between love and sex, posing her in the role of a person who is offering a "higher love". In Mrs. Apocrypha's mindset, this was "her best love", and I was rejecting it. Sex, she could have with just anyone - and did (though she wouldn't post that on her facebook). But what she was offering me was much more valuable. In essence, she's posing YOUR argument for including sex as, at best, unimportant, and at worst, selfish and lewd. She's shaming you. And doing it on facebook. I've seen my friends do this, and I instantly know they are in marital distress. Here's another way to frame that - and I think it's a more accurate narrative. It's easy to hide romantic aversion to a person (often as a result of contempt or disgust), as a higher love, by cloaking it in the chaffe of "but everything else is great". You fill your life with activities, work, recreation - all the things you would have skipped to have sex before, or in addition to. When everything else is great "except for the sex", it's interesting how conspicuous that ONE lack can be, along with the constant intention (such as posting greeting card verse about love) on facebook to others, to direct one's attention away from that absence. It's not actually hard to have sex. People who want to have sex with each other have it under the most unlikely and difficult situations, and often incur terrible risks and consequences to do so. So the more accurate narrative in her case is not so much about how important it is to have "love" (and there is always such a thing as non-romantic love and intimacy), but rather how important it is to AVOID sex with you, and also to justify and normalize that avoidance. She is (apparently) overriding her own normal libido to avoid sex with you. BUT EVERYTHING IS FINE! Yes, all those things are lovely, and are part of a romantic connection, but you don't need to be married to have them. Your whole body is screaming because it knows she is fooling herself and she is trying to fool you. She'd throw it out to facebook to seek approval rather than discuss it with you. While at the same time, telegraphing to her network that she doesn't want to have sex with you. Your unhappy face in the response to her post is a shot across the bow that you will not let her handwave this as casual, unimportant discussion among friends. It introduces the idea that you might actually respond to it authentically in whatever forum she chooses to raise it. Including in public. Yes. I am done putting on a happy face for the public. For years, I kept up the pretense of a happy marriage because I was always taught "not to air your dirty laundry" and that our personal life was nobody else's business. I won't be the one to bring it up but I won't be playing along with her lies anymore.
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Post by McRoomMate on May 4, 2017 12:45:02 GMT -5
I hate to be brutal but you are proposing Vasectomy, others proposed getting fat and reducing libido . . . Why not just be totally sure and go for CASTRATION ? ! ! Go visit Prostitutes? Well the risks are statistically low of catching HIV with proper condom use but again . . . COPING MECHANISMS and SELF-DENIAL. Look per my experience these are all roads to the Insane Asylum or worse. I hope I am not sounding judgmental - I mean this as one that took many of these paths and I am only sharing and warning in good faith what happened to me - maybe your experience will be different. Simple suggestion: Pray and gather COURAGE and be "RIGOROUSLY HONEST" with yourself . . . AKA "sorting your shit out". My response was aligned with the Jonathon Swift approach used in A Modest Proposal - - sarcasm, satire, I don't know the right term for it...but overstating something to the point of absurdity in order to highlight how absurd the question is to me. There is no way in hell that I will pursue a living situation which requires me to actively reduce a human urge for closeness. To do so is to not live at all. (For me) Thank-you @geekgoddess Yes I was attempting to continue the "sarcastic" theater of absurd . . . I think I need to work on my delivery. Thank-you clarification. Well said and I agree 100% ! ! !
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 12:59:37 GMT -5
I should point out it's not about forcing his wife to change. It's about reclaiming your selfhood. No longer acting like nothing is wrong with the relationship. If you allow status quo to continue, there will never be a change. If H's. wife respects him, it does not mean that she'll give him sex. H. will have respect for himself because he is no longer a willing participant in a crummy marriage. We first have to acknowledge a problem before we can fix it. BTW. I'm not leaving the bedroom. Why should I leave? She's the one who's attitude sucks. She can go to the spare bedroom! I am so impressed with your attitude! This sounds like you are reclaiming your rights as a person. Remember, your W has every right to be in a sexless marriage. However, you have every right to be sexually fulfilled in marriage. If she chooses to be sexless, she has made the choice to not be married to you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 13:08:42 GMT -5
Up until now, I believed that my W understood my needs, sympathized with me, cared enough to occasionally meet my needs, and just let other things get in the way too often. Now, it is clear that she doesn't understand my needs at all, her lack of understanding means she is incapable of sympathy, her lack of effort in trying to understand me means she doesn't care enough to bother, and she is probably grateful for (and intentionally creates) many of the issues that get in the way of meeting my needs. I am so happy to see the change in your attitude. You came here recently saying that you just couldn't divorce, and she was a wonderful wife except for the sex. Now you are starting to realize that the sexual refusal is really just a symptom of a much more serious problem: She really had no sympathy, doesn't care, and creates reasons to avoid sex. In my opinion, those are all characteristics of someone who does not love you!!
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Post by Apocrypha on May 4, 2017 13:28:52 GMT -5
Up until now, I believed that my W understood my needs, sympathized with me, cared enough to occasionally meet my needs, and just let other things get in the way too often. Now, it is clear that she doesn't understand my needs at all, her lack of understanding means she is incapable of sympathy, her lack of effort in trying to understand me means she doesn't care enough to bother, and she is probably grateful for (and intentionally creates) many of the issues that get in the way of meeting my needs. I am so happy to see the change in your attitude. You came here recently saying that you just couldn't divorce, and she was a wonderful wife except for the sex. Now you are starting to realize that the sexual refusal is really just a symptom of a much more serious problem: She really had no sympathy, doesn't care, and creates reasons to avoid sex. In my opinion, those are all characteristics of someone who does not love you!!
Maybe, though you can love someone with whom you don't want to have sex. Hard to know whether she loves him from this chair, but it would be apparent that if marriage is a sexual/romantic relationship, that her intention is to have a different relationship format than that with him.
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