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Post by Lithium92 on Jan 5, 2017 12:41:44 GMT -5
And also 'love is an angel disguised as lust'...
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 5, 2017 12:56:14 GMT -5
And also 'love is an angel disguised as lust'... Yes, but i never believed her on that one ...
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 5, 2017 15:00:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I was assuming from Earth's first post his wife is at least trying. If she can't/won't/isn't ready, the patterns will just repeat forever. I'd got rid of most of my fleas by the time I got married, but I still had an occasional nasty temper though not wayyy off the scale, and my wife is more than usually sensitive to that kind of thing. It took her telling me she wasn't sure if we could stay married if I didn't cool it. I wanted to stay married, and I cooled it. If not easy, it was straightforward, and pretty quick to change. But I wanted to do it, for sure. Your partner's zero libido may not even be part of her family stuff, or it might be so deeprooted she can't face going there. I'm just as baffled by people not wanting sex as any of the other refused people here... I have concluded that her noninterest in sex arises from a place that she refuses to revisit - and I accept that she probably refuses to visit this place because it would cause her too much pain. Her anticipation and fear of this pain precludes her even thinking about it and far exceeds her interest in whether i am happy or not. Sobeit. I now will take her as she is. I will try not to complain, but i know i will at times. The life I dreamed of will never come to pass. I'll acept what i have and at least be grateful for that. As my hero Patti Smith once said, "not all dreams need to be realized ..." I am curious, why the, " I now will take her as she is," her non-interest, her refusal, her pain, her fear, her interests, to hell with something as simple as your happiness. Was all that in your wedding vows? Was that clearly who you agreed to marry? May I say you have been socialized to value and pursue the characteristics of strength and personal power because they are essential elements in making you a good protector and provider- FOR WOMEN! In other words, the strength that's expected of you is the strength to give your woman what she wants and needs. So any failure to do this, is failure as a MAN, in your mind. (sound close?) So saying no, separating, divorce, isn't so simple and obvious is it? As men we are trained to want more than anything, for things to be resolved as smoothly as possible. When you are so dedicated to that line of thinking, you can't even entertain the idea of taking off the gloves, and fighting even for basic fairness. I see this strongly in my self. My father took it to the grave with him, leaving and coming back to my bi-polar mother. Sadly because of all these things, you will often loose, badly. To flatly reject the stated "needs" of a woman, even highly irrational and unreasonable ones, from a woman with whom you share children, and have been married to can seem highly difficult. It goes back to your masculine programming, it's a failure that brings you deep shame. You (me) just can't say no to that woman. We are just not trained, or given the tools to defend ourselves, or even informed that you should! We are trained, and quite brutally, that conflict with a woman,in which you fight back in any way, is the act of a bully or a coward, not a man. It doesn't matter how justified or important it really is that you defend yourself. To do so is betrayal of what you have been trained to believe what manhood is about. The point of all this? Do you think your wife is not instinctively aware of all this? She is an expert at manipulating compliance from a man. She has learned every one of your buttons and how to push them skillfully. and often at will. She can make you feel small, guilty, and wrong at any given moment. She has been doing it for years. This is were you need to start holding your ground, gaining ground, saying NO and limit your dealings with her. It's a long pattern of behavior ahead of us that needs breaking and changing. Not something that can be done completely alone either. Time to start gathering support, something that works, a life that is lasting and effective. Still feel like hanging on, or saying good-bye? You do have a choice.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Jan 5, 2017 20:29:51 GMT -5
I'm curious over the stats, why csl can report from the xforum and here are 2 thoughts or possible contributors I've come up with; 1) since it is a Christian forum, & preservation of the union is Uber Alles, maybe that group of disgruntled marriages are starting to try & solve their situations prior to the deal becoming a true ILIASM Shithole. 2) their defining turn-around may be starfish sex but they don't honk it's better not to complain over quality b/c "preservation of marriage" is so drummed into their sense of the way things should be. Alternative: my mom's emphasis on a shared spiritual view or standpoint. She thinks it can save anything. Maybe she's right. {Any Druid sexgods out there needing a goddess to worship?}
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Post by baza on Jan 5, 2017 21:44:17 GMT -5
The disparity (csl's lot coming in at 1 saved shithole out of every 80 ---- the ILIASM record coming in at 1 saved shithole out of every 6,250) is quite striking, but as you say Sister GG, the csl lots definition of what "saved" means may be very very different to the ILIASM lots definition.
It has been very difficult to establish how many members there are in csl's lot. It still isn't really known. There were 637 following on Twitter when I was looking around there yeterday, but csl subsequently put the figure at a couple of thousand. Taking that at face value the saved ratio would go from 1 in 80 out to something like 1 in 250 in that group.... still terrible odds, but still vastly superior to the ILIASM lots 1 in 6,250.
Perhaps the csl lot attract a different demographic. (A "better" class of dysfunctional marriage than is historically seen in the ILIASM lot maybe) Or maybe, as you suggest, just staying together, is a measure of success there.
To cut to the chase, if csl's lot are credibly demonstrating a save rate of ILIASM shitholes at a rate 25 times better than the ILIASM lot, then it would be incumbent on us to start directing people to that site as a matter of course as a credible alternative (or maybe additional resource) to this group. Indeed it would be irresponsible not to do so.
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Post by nancyb on Jan 5, 2017 22:04:15 GMT -5
I agree with you Baza and would site the reference as an additional resource to those who's questing for ILIASM answers leads towards a christian faith stance. I like that this forum doesn't have a religious bias.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 5, 2017 22:14:00 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 22:59:46 GMT -5
I think sharing a faith or at least believing in something greater than yourself could go a long way towards saving a marriage. If you are the center of your world, why work for someone else's happiness? It's my 2 cents that having a spiritual framework goes a long way towards wanting to connect with and please someone else before pleasing yourself.
There's also the fact that religions will generally outline precepts for a healthy marriage, giving people who share that religion a framework to build on. If both believe in God or a similar higher power, surely they're not going to argue with the higher power, but instead come together to work on it, to please God or at least to comply with their shared (or similar) spiritual or religious precepts.
I'm married to a self-proclaimed atheist. That fella don't answer to nobody - not God and certainly not me. Not much I can do with that attitude. I'll never marry another atheist. Next Mr. Elle will have an intimate relationship with God.
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Post by csl on Jan 5, 2017 23:20:14 GMT -5
It has been very difficult to establish how many members there are in csl's lot. It still isn't really known. There were 637 following on Twitter when I was looking around there yeterday, but csl subsequently put the figure at a couple of thousand. Taking that at face value the saved ratio would go from 1 in 80 out to something like 1 in 250 in that group.... still terrible odds, but still vastly superior to the ILIASM lots 1 in 6,250. Perhaps the csl lot attract a different demographic. (A "better" class of dysfunctional marriage than is historically seen in the ILIASM lot maybe) Or maybe, as you suggest, just staying together, is a measure of success there. To cut to the chase, if csl's lot are credibly demonstrating a save rate of ILIASM shitholes at a rate 25 times better than the ILIASM lot, then it would be incumbent on us to start directing people to that site as a matter of course as a credible alternative (or maybe additional resource) to this group. Indeed it would be irresponsible not to do so. I find myself puzzled as to where you are finding those stats. Here's what I find: I have 70 Wordpress followers of my blog. I have 28 email followers of my blog. I have 29 followers of my Twitter account. In looking this up, I see that I have made 637 tweets, not that I have 637 followers. As to the numbers of registered members of xforum: I just went to the Members page, and the first page has a list of 50 names. Just as we have a counter at the top of any thread more than a page long, the Member page on xforum also has one, and it shows that there are 129 pages. I see the math as 129 pages of 50 members a page = around 6450 members of xforum. ----- As to a "better class" of dysfunctional--I don't think it's a better class so much as a more diverse class. As I mentioned in a previous post, the problems and topics are of a wide variety, such as sextoy reviews (the Womanizer is getting rave reviews) or how to recover from infidelity. One thread going now is a husband who doesn't know how to get his wife to relax for oral sex. Another, like a thread on ilaism, is about a wife who doesn't want to come to bed at the same as the husband, thus avoiding sex. Iliasm deals with just one thing, and unfortunately, seems like a hospice care for one illness. That's not a knock, but here, "Work on your exit plan" is a mantra; I never read that phrase before, on xforum. That's not to say that there haven't been divorces and SM defeats and setbacks. The board talked one guy through a divorce because he had NEVER had sex with his wife of eight years. NEVER. I would say that geekgoddess's first point is pretty accurate: After all, a long-standing shibboleth is "God hates divorce", and the effort to preserve a marriage can be Herculean. Unfortunately, it can also be Sisyphean. Yes, some accept what you call "starfish sex", but others do report progress and turnarounds. --------- Baza speaks of the abysmal save rate of iliasm and speaks of sending some to xforum. No one has brought this up, as far as I know, but what about Michelle Weiner-Davis, and her Divorcebusters site? Not Christian, not religious, so if that is offensive to you, she would seem to be an acceptable alternative. Does anyone know her "save rates?" I just went back and looked at iliasm's mission statement on the home page, and while it sounds good and helpful, I'm wondering if there hasn't been some mission-creep hasn't occurred.
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Post by baza on Jan 5, 2017 23:45:19 GMT -5
Thanks for that clarification Brother csl. 6,450 members it is.
That makes the sums 8 saves out of 6,450. Or 1 in 806. Or 00.12%
But the point holds good. This - terrible - 00.12% is still way better than the ILIASM 8 out of 51,283, or 1 in 6,410, or 00.06%.
As you point out though, the ILIASM group is a one trick pony, dealing with dysfunctional marriages / sexual refusal only. Whereas your 6,450 are covering a wider spectrum.
But there might still be a case to be made to refer enquirers here - of a christian view - to your lot. If it sorted out 1 (one) that otherwise wouldn't get sorted out that would be a good result.
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Post by csl on Jan 6, 2017 0:00:24 GMT -5
Thanks for that clarification Brother csl. 6,450 members it is. That makes the sums 8 saves out of 6,450. Or 1 in 806. Or 00.12% But the point holds good. This - terrible - 00.12% is still way better than the ILIASM 8 out of 51,283, or 1 in 6,410, or 00.06%. As you point out though, the ILIASM group is a one trick pony, dealing with dysfunctional marriages / sexual refusal only. Whereas your 6,450 are covering a wider spectrum. But there might still be a case to be made to refer enquirers here - of a christian view - to your lot. If it sorted out 1 (one) that otherwise wouldn't get sorted out that would be a good result. Now, be fair. Those 9 (not 8) that are the ones that stuck in my memory, which is not all-encompassing of xforum's totals. And, in my little sphere of 70 followers, I know of at least one save, so how does 1 in 70 play out? 1.5? As to the referring, I don't know how that would come about. I prefer not to put my blog in a signature, as I don't want to spam iliasm; it's y'all's board, and I'm just a guest. And I can't see a place for off-site referrals. I guess this is above my paygrade.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 6, 2017 0:33:31 GMT -5
OK, I'm going to weigh into this debate and up front: I'm not religious and I'm not even Christian. But I'm aware of the Corintheans passage about conjugal rights, which I raised in another post today, in a purely historical context.
The Christian bible is very specific: Christian spouses will "spread their legs", on demand, for their spouses. That is their duty as a Christian. So it does not surprise me if as many as 1% of Christian refusers actually take that biblical passage to heart. And to be honest, the fact that it is apparently only 1% or less could be arguably very surprising.
On the other hand, in the rest of the modern world, that "spread em or else" strategy is called "Marital Rape". Of one form or another... and the resulting problems with that are discussed frequently here.
You have two very diametrically opposing world views here.
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Post by baza on Jan 6, 2017 2:30:46 GMT -5
On the available evidence, your "00.50% chance" is wildly optimistic, it's more like 00.02%
Anyway, you could do worse than search for Brother heraclitus who has embarked on something similar, and read his stories in sequence from go to whoa.
He appears to be adopting a policy of sorting his own stuff out, and leaving his missus to sort her own shit out (if she so chooses to do so). That, is a pretty good strategy, as it concentrates on things he can control, and lets the things he can't control go. And the cards will fall where they may.
Meantime, getting that legal advice and developing that exit strategy and shoring up your support network ought continue uninterrupted. "If" it turns out you need none of it, you've lost nothing. "If" it turns out you do need these things, and you ain't got them when you need them, you will propel yourself backwards by months.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 6, 2017 8:08:46 GMT -5
I think sharing a faith or at least believing in something greater than yourself could go a long way towards saving a marriage. If you are the center of your world, why work for someone else's happiness? It's my 2 cents that having a spiritual framework goes a long way towards wanting to connect with and please someone else before pleasing yourself. There's also the fact that religions will generally outline precepts for a healthy marriage, giving people who share that religion a framework to build on. If both believe in God or a similar higher power, surely they're not going to argue with the higher power, but instead come together to work on it, to please God or at least to comply with their shared (or similar) spiritual or religious precepts. I'm married to a self-proclaimed atheist. That fella don't answer to nobody - not God and certainly not me. Not much I can do with that attitude. I'll never marry another atheist. Next Mr. Elle will have an intimate relationship with God. I would love to agree with you 100% on that, however we are still talking about people, one of the biggest, strongest masks that people hide behind is there religion. Beware of those who claim to have an intimate relationship with God for purely selfish reasons. Smoke and mirrors to hide behind, and falsely claim that they are way better than you, while there actions prove that it is a surface understanding at best that fits there needs for the moment. There are many "religions" out there that play to this crowd.
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Post by csl on Jan 6, 2017 8:56:44 GMT -5
OK, I'm going to weigh into this debate and up front: I'm not religious and I'm not even Christian. But I'm aware of the Corintheans passage about conjugal rights, which I raised in another post today, in a purely historical context. The Christian bible is very specific: Christian spouses will "spread their legs", on demand, for their spouses. That is their duty as a Christian. So it does not surprise me if as many as 1% of Christian refusers actually take that biblical passage to heart. And to be honest, the fact that it is apparently only 1% or less could be arguably very surprising. On the other hand, in the rest of the modern world, that "spread em or else" strategy is called "Marital Rape". Of one form or another... and the resulting problems with that are discussed frequently here. You have two very diametrically opposing world views here. "Spread 'em or else?" Yeah, no bias there. So any husband who tells his refusing, gate keeping wife that he can't/won't live in a SM, be he Christian or atheist, is now a rapist? By your lights, any husband who gives The Talk without divorce papers in hand is a potential rapist?
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