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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2016 11:02:43 GMT -5
Then there are those who announce that everything is great again so they are leaving the site only to return some months down the line because their spouse could only keep up the pretense for a while before slipping back to their old ways. And some just never come back so you don't really know if they succeeded or failed but I did keep in contact with one person who said they had turned it around who admitted later that failed and they were too embarrassed to comeback.
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Post by beachguy on Dec 31, 2016 11:14:38 GMT -5
Over time I have come to a firm belief that this is really simple: people that want to have sex will have sex, even if their marriage isn't perfect. People that do not want to have sex will not have sex, at least on a regular basis, without the threat of divorce precipitating a temporary reset. I know a number of people that divorced, but told me that the sex was the last thing to go before the divorce. So while their problems were mounting they were still having sex. Sexlessness, for them, seemed to be a Sign From God, so to speak, that it was over. It was the last straw, not the first straw. Most of us are very different. My marriage went sexless on my honeymoon. Many others, the same, shortly after the wedding or within a year or two, but the marriage dragged on for decades. If I was good enough to marry, wasn't I good enough to fuck the next day? Did I really become such a dickhead overnight that I was now, the next day, unworthy of fucking???
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Post by csl on Dec 31, 2016 11:46:42 GMT -5
csl - I'd be interested in the sex-positive writers you mention. Give us a list of links, could you? Thanks! These women all write in the Christian arena, for a Christian audience. If you want, I can send you a message with their urls and a bit of background about each one. I am chary of putting their urls on the board, as one I know got horrendously spammed and trolled a couple of years ago. I mean vicious.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2016 11:57:25 GMT -5
I'm expecting to get 100 one word replies to this one, but I had to ask anyway. I am a denizen of another forum, and I can tell you of several who have; five off the top of my head. I can also point you in the direction of several women bloggers who were refusers and now are sex-positive writers, encouraging other women to stop being frigidaires (not their terminology, of course.) From these writing can you see any common threads or actions that caused or helped with their changes. Maybe you could write up a synopsis of what you see as the game changers. I think that would be be interesting and beneficial here?
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Post by csl on Dec 31, 2016 12:32:02 GMT -5
I am a denizen of another forum, and I can tell you of several who have; five off the top of my head. I can also point you in the direction of several women bloggers who were refusers and now are sex-positive writers, encouraging other women to stop being frigidaires (not their terminology, of course.) From these writing can you see any common threads or actions that caused or helped with their changes. Maybe you could write up a synopsis of what you see as the game changers. I think that would be be interesting and beneficial here? Brief synopses: #1 - wife of 28 years, sexless for at least half. Left her home for the guest house and when the hubs asked her to come back, she said no. Explained she couldn't take it any more. When the lightbulb went on about how he had been treating her, he booked himself into a clinic, which confirmed extremely low testosterone. He started taking injections, changed lifestyle, and last post she made about a year ago, said, "I have the marriage I always dreamed of." #2 - another wife, 27 years of refusal. Moved out of the house, and hubs asked her to come back. It was a wake-up call, and she told him what she needed. Again, went from sexless to satisfying. #3 - man in 26 years of sexual frustration and gatekeeping. After years of anger and arguing, took his wedding ring off. In their liturgical church, symbols such as wedding rings are very meaningful, and the sight of the ring on the nightstand rattled her. She took him to bed that evening, and they had a long talk afterwards. He says that she agreed to twice a week, and is engaged in their sex life now. #4 - Husband in 17 years of sexless marriage. Spur of the moment honest response to a question triggered two years of fighting, but he says that coming out of the end of it, his wife changed her approach to their sex life, going from a frequency of once every two-three months to 2-3 weekly. #5 - My fav is the husband who, in essence, was his wife's factotum/eunuch. He decided that he would no longer give her royalty service, and when the princess came to him livid (took her about two weeks to notice she wasn't being catered to), told her no more pedestal, that they would go to counseling and have a regular sex life or they would divorce. She immediately said, "Divorce!", but when he got out the ads and started looking for an apartment for her, she backed down and agreed. He says that after counseling and acceding to his boundary of have a sex life in their marriage, that he's happy. You'll notice that in all five instances, the refused spouse directly confronted the refuser about the problem, and didn't whine and whinge. In four of them, separation/divorce (or the threat thereof) were part of the process. In all four cases, the refusers made sexlessness a dealbreaker, an intolerable. I've written in several of my blog posts, "As long as the tolerable remains tolerable, you will tolerate it. It's only when it becomes intolerable that you will act." These five acted. I quoted Einstein in another post on ILIASM today, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result." He's only right. That said, I have to add that it takes two to tangle, and you can only decide what you will do. One husband I know of, in a 25+ year SM, after many years of trying to 'fix' his wife, informed her that a SM was no longer tolerable, that she needed to fish or cut bait. She opted for divorce, preferring celibacy to married sex.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2016 12:51:58 GMT -5
From these writing can you see any common threads or actions that caused or helped with their changes. Maybe you could write up a synopsis of what you see as the game changers. I think that would be be interesting and beneficial here? Brief synopses: #1 - wife of 28 years, sexless for at least half. Left her home for the guest house and when the hubs asked her to come back, she said no. Explained she couldn't take it any more. When the lightbulb went on about how he had been treating her, he booked himself into a clinic, which confirmed extremely low testosterone. He started taking injections, changed lifestyle, and last post she made about a year ago, said, "I have the marriage I always dreamed of." #2 - another wife, 27 years of refusal. Moved out of the house, and hubs asked her to come back. It was a wake-up call, and she told him what she needed. Again, went from sexless to satisfying. #3 - man in 26 years of sexual frustration and gatekeeping. After years of anger and arguing, took his wedding ring off. In their liturgical church, symbols such as wedding rings are very meaningful, and the sight of the ring on the nightstand rattled her. She took him to bed that evening, and they had a long talk afterwards. He says that she agreed to twice a week, and is engaged in their sex life now. #4 - Husband in 17 years of sexless marriage. Spur of the moment honest response to a question triggered two years of fighting, but he says that coming out of the end of it, his wife changed her approach to their sex life, going from a frequency of once every two-three months to 2-3 weekly. #5 - My fav is the husband who, in essence, was his wife's factotum/eunuch. He decided that he would no longer give her royalty service, and when the princess came to him livid (took her about two weeks to notice she wasn't being catered to), told her no more pedestal, that they would go to counseling and have a regular sex life or they would divorce. She immediately said, "Divorce!", but when he got out the ads and started looking for an apartment for her, she backed down and agreed. He says that after counseling and acceding to his boundary of have a sex life in their marriage, that he's happy. You'll notice that in all five instances, the refused spouse directly confronted the refuser about the problem, and didn't whine and whinge. In four of them, separation/divorce (or the threat thereof) were part of the process. In all four cases, the refusers made sexlessness a dealbreaker, an intolerable. I've written in several of my blog posts, "As long as the tolerable remains tolerable, you will tolerate it. It's only when it becomes intolerable that you will act." These five acted. I quoted Einstein in another post on ILIASM today, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result." He's only right. That said, I have to add that it takes two to tangle, and you can only decide what you will do. One husband I know of, in a 25+ year SM, after many years of trying to 'fix' his wife, informed her that a SM was no longer tolerable, that she needed to fish or cut bait. She opted for divorce, preferring celibacy to married sex. I know this is my issue. I grew up in an atmosphere of abuse so people went along and tolerated even though it was not what they really want and when I read the stories that changed only happened after ultimatums I wonder if this is done out of love or they just tolerate it for an easy life. For me i prefer no sex to thinking I am getting what I want knowing I had cajoled them and they don't really want it. Has your blogs addressed this or does the ends justify the means. This is actually sometime I struggle with when I broach the subject with my wife.
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Post by beachguy on Dec 31, 2016 13:39:34 GMT -5
Brief synopses: #1 - wife of 28 years, sexless for at least half. Left her home for the guest house and when the hubs asked her to come back, she said no. Explained she couldn't take it any more. When the lightbulb went on about how he had been treating her, he booked himself into a clinic, which confirmed extremely low testosterone. He started taking injections, changed lifestyle, and last post she made about a year ago, said, "I have the marriage I always dreamed of." #2 - another wife, 27 years of refusal. Moved out of the house, and hubs asked her to come back. It was a wake-up call, and she told him what she needed. Again, went from sexless to satisfying. #3 - man in 26 years of sexual frustration and gatekeeping. After years of anger and arguing, took his wedding ring off. In their liturgical church, symbols such as wedding rings are very meaningful, and the sight of the ring on the nightstand rattled her. She took him to bed that evening, and they had a long talk afterwards. He says that she agreed to twice a week, and is engaged in their sex life now. #4 - Husband in 17 years of sexless marriage. Spur of the moment honest response to a question triggered two years of fighting, but he says that coming out of the end of it, his wife changed her approach to their sex life, going from a frequency of once every two-three months to 2-3 weekly. #5 - My fav is the husband who, in essence, was his wife's factotum/eunuch. He decided that he would no longer give her royalty service, and when the princess came to him livid (took her about two weeks to notice she wasn't being catered to), told her no more pedestal, that they would go to counseling and have a regular sex life or they would divorce. She immediately said, "Divorce!", but when he got out the ads and started looking for an apartment for her, she backed down and agreed. He says that after counseling and acceding to his boundary of have a sex life in their marriage, that he's happy. You'll notice that in all five instances, the refused spouse directly confronted the refuser about the problem, and didn't whine and whinge. In four of them, separation/divorce (or the threat thereof) were part of the process. In all four cases, the refusers made sexlessness a dealbreaker, an intolerable. I've written in several of my blog posts, "As long as the tolerable remains tolerable, you will tolerate it. It's only when it becomes intolerable that you will act." These five acted. I quoted Einstein in another post on ILIASM today, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result." He's only right. That said, I have to add that it takes two to tangle, and you can only decide what you will do. One husband I know of, in a 25+ year SM, after many years of trying to 'fix' his wife, informed her that a SM was no longer tolerable, that she needed to fish or cut bait. She opted for divorce, preferring celibacy to married sex. I know this is my issue. I grew up in an atmosphere of abuse so people went along and tolerated even though it was not what they really want and when I read the stories that changed only happened after ultimatums I wonder if this is done out of love or they just tolerate it for an easy life. For me i prefer no sex to thinking I am getting what I want knowing I had cajoled them and they don't really want it. Has your blogs addressed this or does the ends justify the means. This is actually sometime I struggle with when I broach the subject with my wife. I think what CSL is saying is that unless you tell your wife that Celibacy Is Not An Option - and back it up - you will not solve the problem. Would you be happy with a successful Spread Em Or Else strategy is up to you. Other people don't matter, do they? If it's not then divorce is your only other option. But you know all that, right? In retrospect I wish I had given my wife the Spread Em Or Else threat, and meant it. She might have complied. And if she did, I might not have liked the result. But that would have been better than 30 years of certain sexlessness. And I could have always ended the marriage anyway if I couldn't live with coerced sex. Nothing is forever except an SM which you refuse to deal with. Which seems to be your plan. But that's me and irrelevant to you.
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Post by csl on Dec 31, 2016 13:45:56 GMT -5
I know this is my issue. I grew up in an atmosphere of abuse so people went along and tolerated even though it was not what they really want and when I read the stories that changed only happened after ultimatums I wonder if this is done out of love or they just tolerate it for an easy life. For me i prefer no sex to thinking I am getting what I want knowing I had cajoled them and they don't really want it. Has your blogs addressed this or does the ends justify the means. This is actually sometime I struggle with when I broach the subject with my wife. Example #1, above, didn't require a boundary, as the hubs had a Come-to-Jesus moment, and initiated the clinic visit and treatment on his own. It was his "OMG!" that was the start of the change for them. Examples #3 & #5 were smart enough to include boundaries, action steps, that were part of the reconciliation. Yes, both of them said that SMs would not be tolerated, but they also included other actions, including readings and counseling. #5 required his wife to read Dr. Laura's Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands, and he says that she gained a lot of insight from the book. (Yes, I know that some of you are going to have a reaction to Dr. Laura, but several people I respect, including my wife, really like her.) On my blog, I recommend that some time be spent thinking about action steps/boundaries and dealbreakers before having The Talk. Of course, having no other option open also helps; as I say, "If it's tolerable, tolerate."
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Post by beachguy on Dec 31, 2016 14:07:55 GMT -5
I know this is my issue. I grew up in an atmosphere of abuse so people went along and tolerated even though it was not what they really want and when I read the stories that changed only happened after ultimatums I wonder if this is done out of love or they just tolerate it for an easy life. For me i prefer no sex to thinking I am getting what I want knowing I had cajoled them and they don't really want it. Has your blogs addressed this or does the ends justify the means. This is actually sometime I struggle with when I broach the subject with my wife. Example #1, above, didn't require a boundary, as the hubs had a Come-to-Jesus moment, and initiated the clinic visit and treatment on his own. It was his "OMG!" that was the start of the change for them. Examples #3 & #5 were smart enough to include boundaries, action steps, that were part of the reconciliation. Yes, both of them said that SMs would not be tolerated, but they also included other actions, including readings and counseling. #5 required his wife to read Dr. Laura's Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands, and he says that she gained a lot of insight from the book. (Yes, I know that some of you are going to have a reaction to Dr. Laura, but several people I respect, including my wife, really like her.) On my blog, I recommend that some time be spent thinking about action steps/boundaries and dealbreakers before having The Talk. Of course, having no other option open also helps; as I say, "If it's tolerable, tolerate." #1 sounds like a boundary and coercion to me... She moved out of the house. She came back when he presumably agreed to regular sex?
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Post by csl on Dec 31, 2016 14:26:58 GMT -5
Actually, before. That night, he had a Damascus Road revelation of what he'd been doing, and just crumpled. She went back to the house with her husband, comforting him(!). The next morning, he called his business and told them he wouldn't be in, made love to his wife, and started calling around about clinics. Found one that did the kind of work he needed, and scheduled a vacation with his wife in Houston to go there for a week. She never got to the boundaries, other than the separation, and that didn't last through the night.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 31, 2016 15:30:22 GMT -5
Based on what I'm reading, though, just seems like the odds are 99.9% against us coming to a place where we learn to actually communicate with each other and be comfortable enough to engage in sexual intimacy. Yes, the odds are stacked heavily against you. But you seem to have the critical ingredient - she recognizes there are issues to work on and she's taking an active role in changing them. It remains to be seen if you can add intimacy to her 'scope of work', but there is at least a mindset of self-improvement and willing participation to start with. That is universally the biggest obstacle -- if they're content and refuse to acknowledge issues, then little more can be done. It sounds like she's past that mental roadblock.
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Post by thebaffledking on Dec 31, 2016 15:42:50 GMT -5
She can hear my honesty and deal with it. I'm trying to be direct and truthful without being mean. But it's hard for her to hear. I told her that a sm is defined by sex 10/year. She physically winced. She does not want to hear this. This is the honorable route, EH. I don't know your wife's personality, of course, but be prepared to hear some things that you wish you didn't have to hear, either. Her return comments may be benign, but listen very closely to what she's actually saying (or how she physically reacts). When I tried to be up front over several years with my strange case of a wife, I heard things like: What am I supposed to do, go live with my mom? (said with contempt) Most couples I know don't have sex very often (said with contempt) I still love you, but not in that romantic silly way like in the beginning. That happens to everyone. (trying to be convincing) You never finish anything you start, and it's hard to be attracted to that (said with disdain and to this day I don't really know what she was talking about) If you want sex, I'd be okay with you seeing a prostitute (said with an icy and casual air that shocks me to this day - 8 years later) There's much more, but you get the point. Whichever way they go when you speak from your heart, keep in mind they are NOT thinking of you or feeling what you feel. They are figuring out ways to deflect everything, put it to rest, and keep moving forward in the life they have carved out for themselves (carved from our hearts and souls). I guess what I'm trying to say is that your good intentions and breath are likely being wasted no matter HOW she responds......odds are she's not even hearing you.......and she's most definitely not feeling your pain. Someone who loves you could not hear the pain and anguish in their partner's voice and still carry on anyway.......... Anyone who actually enjoys/needs/desires/loves sexual intimacy will get it from the closest, safest, and easiest source......and that's their spouse. So the spouse who can go years without is NOT going to change. They are asexual and lack empathy. They also do NOT love you fully.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Dec 31, 2016 17:50:12 GMT -5
What do you mean by turn it around? There are a handful of people who have gone from a sexless marriage to one with sex in it. Although as baza said a couple of them subsequently seem to have gone downhill. My worry is more what happens if you do turn it around? Even timeforliving2 , who is kind of like a poster child around here for possibility, doesn't strike me as being entirely thrilled with the results. (Sorry TL2!!!) If you take somebody who really doesn't want to fuck you and manage to get them to compromise to the point where they are willing to do it, or even happy to do it, even if you get engaged sex once a week, what is the chance of them ever approaching sex with the kind of enthusiasm that is really going to make you happy? It is just not going to happen. As mettamomma used to say on EP with alarming regularity, if you have to beg, bargain, threaten or cajole somebody into having sex with you, you are never going to have the kind of intimate sex life that you really want. unmatched and beachguy... It's true that I'm not on Cloud 9 with sex with my W even after our turnaround nearly 3 years ago. But I keep this in perspective and I do have *hope* my W can and will change further as time progresses. I am fairly satisfied with the frequency (of course I wish it were a bit more but not too bad all things considered), and I wish it were more spontaneous more often, and I wish it were more adventurous/playful. We have several complicating factors / family life & health events going on in our household that are making life more stressful and honestly I've probably been letting that be a bit too much of an excuse than I should have (e.g. it's probably a bit my fault for letting some further opportunities for growth in sexual intimacy "slide"... and not be as persistent as I should have). I haven't pushed too hard. My wife *does* know that I like flirting physically with her, and when she remembers, she gets a bit "handsy" with me. Last night, for example, we were lining up for family pictures with my parents, siblings, kids and us... with a camera on a tripod and I'm running the show... and my wife grabs my crotch as I'm lining up behind her! Made me smile a little better for the picture, no doubt! So I don't think she's asexual .... there's a side to her that can be further developed I think. It's up to both of us to keep at it. On the frequency side, keep this in mind... Once we started having sex again, I started keeping a log of the times we had sex because I wanted to make sure we stayed in a normal range and I didn't want to forget anything (e.g. if my W started to argue that we were having sex more frequently and we weren't, etc.). So here are my numbers since 2009, which I am happy to share, since I think it may be helpful for people trying to determine for themselves if I've been successful or not: 2009 - 1 2010 - 0 2011 - 1 2012 - 0 2013 - 2 (in first half of the year; started going to marriage counseling in late November) 2014 - 62 (first 2 weekends in January had sex twice each weekend) 2015 - 45 2016 - 40 So, yes, sex has tapered off a bit due to (1) almost all of our sex is on weekend mornings, and (2) due to timing of her colds and periods it hasn't been good timing on weekends. But if we're healthy / nothing physically interfering we're usually chatting about things / being a little flirty on Thursday or Friday about when we're going to do it that weekend. And in the grand scheme of things, I've had sex almost 150 times in the last 3 years (average of 49 times/yr), and in the 5 years prior to that, we had sex less than once a year. Given that perspective, has my turnaround been successful? Is the glass half full or half empty? Yes, I know it could be even better and I want it to be better, but both of my kids have health issues and/or counseling issues, my wife has her own "issues" to deal with (a bit perfectionist, a bit controlling with our kids, dealing with her parents, and to her credit, trying to manage a lot of things going on in our lives / run the household while working part time in our business), and I have been spending a lot of time trying to run a small business while trying to decide if I should get back into the corporate world while also taking care of home renovation projects, exercise more, and in general trying to be happier and healthier in other areas of my life (e.g. my personal happiness does not come solely from my spouse). All in all, I am relatively happy that I'm significantly better off than I was 3 years ago. But I also want to strive for more and better sexual intimacy, in time. Life is a balancing act, and there are lot of pieces I'm trying to balance. Looking ahead in 2017, I think I will push a little more / ask a little more for us grow more with our sex life. Hope this update is helpful. Happy to chat more on this on these posts or privately with anyone. TL2
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Post by beachguy on Dec 31, 2016 18:00:29 GMT -5
What do you mean by turn it around? There are a handful of people who have gone from a sexless marriage to one with sex in it. Although as baza said a couple of them subsequently seem to have gone downhill. My worry is more what happens if you do turn it around? Even timeforliving2 , who is kind of like a poster child around here for possibility, doesn't strike me as being entirely thrilled with the results. (Sorry TL2!!!) If you take somebody who really doesn't want to fuck you and manage to get them to compromise to the point where they are willing to do it, or even happy to do it, even if you get engaged sex once a week, what is the chance of them ever approaching sex with the kind of enthusiasm that is really going to make you happy? It is just not going to happen. As mettamomma used to say on EP with alarming regularity, if you have to beg, bargain, threaten or cajole somebody into having sex with you, you are never going to have the kind of intimate sex life that you really want. unmatched and beachguy... It's true that I'm not on Cloud 9 with sex with my W even after our turnaround nearly 3 years ago. But I keep this in perspective and I do have *hope* my W can and will change further as time progresses. I am fairly satisfied with the frequency (of course I wish it were a bit more but not too bad all things considered), and I wish it were more spontaneous more often, and I wish it were more adventurous/playful. We have several complicating factors / family life & health events going on in our household that are making life more stressful and honestly I've probably been letting that be a bit too much of an excuse than I should have (e.g. it's probably a bit my fault for letting some further opportunities for growth in sexual intimacy "slide"... and not be as persistent as I should have). I haven't pushed too hard. My wife *does* know that I like flirting physically with her, and when she remembers, she gets a bit "handsy" with me. Last night, for example, we were lining up for family pictures with my parents, siblings, kids and us... with a camera on a tripod and I'm running the show... and my wife grabs my crotch as I'm lining up behind her! Made me smile a little better for the picture, no doubt! So I don't think she's asexual .... there's a side to her that can be further developed I think. It's up to both of us to keep at it. On the frequency side, keep this in mind... Once we started having sex again, I started keeping a log of the times we had sex because I wanted to make sure we stayed in a normal range and I didn't want to forget anything (e.g. if my W started to argue that we were having sex more frequently and we weren't, etc.). So here are my numbers since 2009, which I am happy to share, since I think it may be helpful for people trying to determine for themselves if I've been successful or not: 2009 - 1 2010 - 0 2011 - 1 2012 - 0 2013 - 2 (in first half of the year; started going to marriage counseling in late November) 2014 - 62 (first 2 weekends in January had sex twice each weekend) 2015 - 45 2016 - 40 So, yes, sex has tapered off a bit due to (1) almost all of our sex is on weekend mornings, and (2) due to timing of her colds and periods it hasn't been good timing on weekends. But if we're healthy / nothing physically interfering we're usually chatting about things / being a little flirty on Thursday or Friday about when we're going to do it that weekend. And in the grand scheme of things, I've had sex almost 150 times in the last 3 years (average of 49 times/yr), and in the 5 years prior to that, we had sex less than once a year. Given that perspective, has my turnaround been successful? Is the glass half full or half empty? Yes, I know it could be even better and I want it to be better, but both of my kids have health issues and/or counseling issues, my wife has her own "issues" to deal with (a bit perfectionist, a bit controlling with our kids, dealing with her parents, and to her credit, trying to manage a lot of things going on in our lives / run the household while working part time in our business), and I have been spending a lot of time trying to run a small business while trying to decide if I should get back into the corporate world while also taking care of home renovation projects, exercise more, and in general trying to be happier and healthier in other areas of my life (e.g. my personal happiness does not come solely from my spouse). All in all, I am relatively happy that I'm significantly better off than I was 3 years ago. But I also want to strive for more and better sexual intimacy, in time. Life is a balancing act, and there are lot of pieces I'm trying to balance. Looking ahead in 2017, I think I will push a little more / ask a little more for us grow more with our sex life. Hope this update is helpful. Happy to chat more on this on these posts or privately with anyone. TL2 While you seem cautiously optimistic that things will improve, your chart is headed decidedly down. It will be at least two more years before you really know where you might be headed. A total of five years. I'm not trying to throw cold water on your deal. Just pointing out that it is a huge uphill climb even under the best of circumstances and you've done as well as any here.
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Post by Pinkberry on Dec 31, 2016 18:08:55 GMT -5
Yes. Search for TimeForLiving2 on here. His is one of very few success stories. Anecdotally, there have been fewer than 5 reported turnarounds (certainly less than 10) in the last 8+ years in the life of this forum and its predecessor on ExperienceProject. Now, it may be that success stories just aren't checking back in. But across that many years and 50,000 members on EP you'd think the tally would be higher. I think baza may have kept a closer count. Fundamentally, the problem is that the low-libido spouse must acknowledge there's an issue, accept their role in the problem, and actively engage in making a change. And out of genuine desire, not under threat of divorce. Virtually no spouses will take those steps. Turn arounds are an oasis though. As I recall, with one exception, all the reported turn arounds were essentially fear avoidance where the refuser would give it up the agreed upon times per month/week to avoid having the refused walk out and ruin their collective lives. Personally, I would not want to live that way and am glad that I'm out. But, as always, YMMV.
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