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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 10:04:28 GMT -5
Maybe I don't get as offended as much as I should. Maybe I let things go too easily when I ought to hang around and fight.
But me, personally, when a man is being sexist with me - I generally try to find a non-emotional way to set him straight.
Once or twice. If he keeps on after that, I tend to stop responding to him. He's either not too bright, or else he's an asshole. Dense people and assholes are two groups that I have very little patience with.
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Post by obobfla on Sept 23, 2016 19:24:05 GMT -5
I remember hearing about mansplaining, especially since I follow a lot of astronauts on Twitter (I get great space pics!). There was an incident on Twitter where a female astronaut shows water spontaneously boiling in space. Some guy had to chime in with an explanation as to why the water boiled in space, explaining physics to a female astronaut who also has a PhD and teaches at Harvard Medical School. The woman knows a little bit about physics and why water boils in space, but she only had 140 characters. Now, the guy got reamed for "mansplaining," and rightly so. But I felt for the guy. Did he even consider that she was female? He was someone who was used to being the smartest guy in the room, so he felt the need to explain. I do that, and I have to constantly remind myself that I am not always the smartest guy around. I have not experienced childbirth, periods, or wearing high heels, although I have been around lots of people who have. I have had four sisters, two female roommates, and four or five female best friends along with wives and girlfriends. That does not make me an expert on women's issues, and all of those women would be quick to remind me. So, what do I do? First, I try avoiding using the pronoun "you" unless I am giving a compliment. This I learned from a woman I used to date. She was sweet, but she kept saying "You should..," suggesting all sorts of ways I could improve my life. I finally said "I should....stop seeing you." I haven't always followed that advice on this forum, and I apologize in advance, in case someone goes through my posts, quotes me, and calls me out on it. Instead, I stick with my experiences, telling what has and hasn't worked for me. If it helps you, fine. If not, I've got it off my chest. Maybe you can help me. Maybe knowing that you don't have it as bad as me gives you hope. Having a wife with a serious mental illness and a son with autism, I have groaned while well-meaning people tell me what to do. If you are going to give me advice, please qualify yourself first. I seriously doubt you understand what I go through. Believe me, I want to help give advice. Part of it is that I am a kind person. Another part is seeing myself as a rescuer in the hope of saving a damsel in distress. Maybe that woman would be so grateful as to want to have sex with me! I can be that delusional. So I try to post carefully and read what I write before posting. I wish those four ladies would come back. I reached out to Z, and I will try to do the same with Helen. This happens in online forums. When we dance with each other, we are going to step on each other's toes. I quit an alcoholic forum when someone there starting putting down Irish people. Dealing with my Irish background and its culture of drinking was hard, so I really didn't appreciate his comments. The rest of the forum took his side, so I told them all to fuck off. So far, that hasn't happened to me here. I'm sticking around.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 20:47:38 GMT -5
I remember hearing about mansplaining, especially since I follow a lot of astronauts on Twitter (I get great space pics!). There was an incident on Twitter where a female astronaut shows water spontaneously boiling in space. Some guy had to chime in with an explanation as to why the water boiled in space, explaining physics to a female astronaut who also has a PhD and teaches at Harvard Medical School. The woman knows a little bit about physics and why water boils in space, but she only had 140 characters. Now, the guy got reamed for "mansplaining," and rightly so. But I felt for the guy. Did he even consider that she was female? He was someone who was used to being the smartest guy in the room, so he felt the need to explain. I do that, and I have to constantly remind myself that I am not always the smartest guy around. I have not experienced childbirth, periods, or wearing high heels, although I have been around lots of people who have. I have had four sisters, two female roommates, and four or five female best friends along with wives and girlfriends. That does not make me an expert on women's issues, and all of those women would be quick to remind me. So, what do I do? First, I try avoiding using the pronoun "you" unless I am giving a compliment. This I learned from a woman I used to date. She was sweet, but she kept saying "You should..," suggesting all sorts of ways I could improve my life. I finally said "I should....stop seeing you." I haven't always followed that advice on this forum, and I apologize in advance, in case someone goes through my posts, quotes me, and calls me out on it. Instead, I stick with my experiences, telling what has and hasn't worked for me. If it helps you, fine. If not, I've got it off my chest. Maybe you can help me. Maybe knowing that you don't have it as bad as me gives you hope. Having a wife with a serious mental illness and a son with autism, I have groaned while well-meaning people tell me what to do. If you are going to give me advice, please qualify yourself first. I seriously doubt you understand what I go through. Believe me, I want to help give advice. Part of it is that I am a kind person. Another part is seeing myself as a rescuer in the hope of saving a damsel in distress. Maybe that woman would be so grateful as to want to have sex with me! I can be that delusional. So I try to post carefully and read what I write before posting. I wish those four ladies would come back. I reached out to Z, and I will try to do the same with Helen. This happens in online forums. When we dance with each other, we are going to step on each other's toes. I quit an alcoholic forum when someone there starting putting down Irish people. Dealing with my Irish background and its culture of drinking was hard, so I really didn't appreciate his comments. The rest of the forum took his side, so I told them all to fuck off. So far, that hasn't happened to me here. I'm sticking around. Ah so you have a knight in shining armor complex too!
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Post by obobfla on Sept 23, 2016 21:13:00 GMT -5
Ah so you have a knight in shining armor complex too! It's been awhile since I drew my sword, and my codpiece needs work.
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Post by deborahmanning on Sept 23, 2016 23:53:29 GMT -5
It's funny you should mention the "knight in shining armor" complex. For me - a strong-willed person whose poor choice of mate has sharpened her self-reliance -- this functions like a bucket of cold water. Oh, you want to save me? Boy, bye.
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Post by Admin on Sept 24, 2016 8:07:16 GMT -5
I wish those four ladies would come back. FWIW, I believe three members left. There was mention that @elle also left, but that was a misunderstanding of unrelated remarks; she clarified here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 8:25:17 GMT -5
It's funny you should mention the "knight in shining armor" complex. For me - a strong-willed person whose poor choice of mate has sharpened her self-reliance -- this functions like a bucket of cold water. Oh, you want to save me? Boy, bye. You got it, fair damsel. That's a recipe for disaster.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 12:57:06 GMT -5
It's funny you should mention the "knight in shining armor" complex. For me - a strong-willed person whose poor choice of mate has sharpened her self-reliance -- this functions like a bucket of cold water. Oh, you want to save me? Boy, bye. You got it, fair damsel. That's a recipe for disaster. I think I would love to have a knight come save me - but I'm so used to being competent and dealing with things myself, that I have a lot of trouble sitting back and allowing people (especially men, in a romantic context) do things for me. I automatically open the car door for myself. This caused confusion when I was seeing the guy from OKCupid, and he wanted to open the car door for me. He also tried to pull my chair out for me when we ate out. I had no idea what he was doing. My refuser used to take care of me, in more practical ways. Sometimes when I'm very interested in something, I'll forget basic things like getting a meal or staying hydrated or getting out of the sun when it's hot. So he would say he wanted something to eat - and then I would realize I was starving. He knew it before I did. And when I was sick, a couple of times he insisted on taking me to the doctor. One time, I was just going to take some Tylenol and go to bed. It turned out to be the flu.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 14:07:25 GMT -5
You got it, fair damsel. That's a recipe for disaster. I think I would love to have a knight come save me - but I'm so used to being competent and dealing with things myself, that I have a lot of trouble sitting back and allowing people (especially men, in a romantic context) do things for me. I automatically open the car door for myself. This caused confusion when I was seeing the guy from OKCupid, and he wanted to open the car door for me. He also tried to pull my chair out for me when we ate out. I had no idea what he was doing. My refuser used to take care of me, in more practical ways. Sometimes when I'm very interested in something, I'll forget basic things like getting a meal or staying hydrated or getting out of the sun when it's hot. So he would say he wanted something to eat - and then I would realize I was starving. He knew it before I did. And when I was sick, a couple of times he insisted on taking me to the doctor. One time, I was just going to take some Tylenol and go to bed. It turned out to be the flu. Taking care of each other is good, that's how it should be. When a man tries to rescue a woman, from some circumstance, from someone else, from herself, that's when things go off the rails. Of course, if a dastardly villain in a black cape and top hat ties a helpless damsel to the railroad tracks and the steam locomotive is whooshing towards her at ever increasing speed, you should cut her loose.
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Post by obobfla on Sept 24, 2016 15:46:51 GMT -5
You got it, fair damsel. That's a recipe for disaster. I think I would love to have a knight come save me - but I'm so used to being competent and dealing with things myself, that I have a lot of trouble sitting back and allowing people (especially men, in a romantic context) do things for me. I automatically open the car door for myself. This caused confusion when I was seeing the guy from OKCupid, and he wanted to open the car door for me. He also tried to pull my chair out for me when we ate out. I had no idea what he was doing. My refuser used to take care of me, in more practical ways. Sometimes when I'm very interested in something, I'll forget basic things like getting a meal or staying hydrated or getting out of the sun when it's hot. So he would say he wanted something to eat - and then I would realize I was starving. He knew it before I did. And when I was sick, a couple of times he insisted on taking me to the doctor. One time, I was just going to take some Tylenol and go to bed. It turned out to be the flu. I think that is part of the marriage vows. I remember when I was engaged and I was flying with my future wife to Boston. We had a layover in Raleigh and picked up a patient from Duke Hospital. During the flight, he had a diabetic reaction. The flight attendants asked his wife what was going on, and she was totally clueless. Fortunately, there was a nurse on board, who said he needed medical care ASAP. We had to stop in Philadelphia to drop him off then wait on the runway three hours before we got back into the air. I swore that such a thing would never happen to me. Guess what?- it did! And when the situation was reversed this past month, I had to argue with my wife that she needed to go to the hospital. Had I respected her wishes and let her stay home, she would either be in a coma or dead. To me, watching out and nursing each other comes with the vows. It comes with being under the same roof.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 14:46:35 GMT -5
I think I would love to have a knight come save me - but I'm so used to being competent and dealing with things myself, that I have a lot of trouble sitting back and allowing people (especially men, in a romantic context) do things for me. I automatically open the car door for myself. This caused confusion when I was seeing the guy from OKCupid, and he wanted to open the car door for me. He also tried to pull my chair out for me when we ate out. I had no idea what he was doing. My refuser used to take care of me, in more practical ways. Sometimes when I'm very interested in something, I'll forget basic things like getting a meal or staying hydrated or getting out of the sun when it's hot. So he would say he wanted something to eat - and then I would realize I was starving. He knew it before I did. And when I was sick, a couple of times he insisted on taking me to the doctor. One time, I was just going to take some Tylenol and go to bed. It turned out to be the flu. I think that is part of the marriage vows. I remember when I was engaged and I was flying with my future wife to Boston. We had a layover in Raleigh and picked up a patient from Duke Hospital. During the flight, he had a diabetic reaction. The flight attendants asked his wife what was going on, and she was totally clueless. Fortunately, there was a nurse on board, who said he needed medical care ASAP. We had to stop in Philadelphia to drop him off then wait on the runway three hours before we got back into the air. I swore that such a thing would never happen to me. Guess what?- it did! And when the situation was reversed this past month, I had to argue with my wife that she needed to go to the hospital. Had I respected her wishes and let her stay home, she would either be in a coma or dead. To me, watching out and nursing each other comes with the vows. It comes with being under the same roof. Absolutely. If you're married you take care of each other, even if your relationship is dead. But there is a difference between helping and rescuing. I don't really know how to describe it. But one thing is for sure, rescuing never works. The only person you can save is yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 17:11:04 GMT -5
Incidentally, my experience of Z is the same as your perception. Oh, happy enough to be flirty and playful with some men here, but the moment a dude seriously opined something she was not on board with, the shutters came down and there was offense taken. I personally smelled more than a whiff of misandry. But frankly, I have a broad back and there are a lot of things out there in the world that bother me a hell of a lot more. Like censorship <snark, snark>. Anyway, I've already made my views of that clear in another post. I exercised my [block button] months ago. I go with JMX here, and really don't think I agree with @wingman 's conclusions that we men need to hitch up our pants, pipe down and get the egshell-walking sneakers out. The odd freak may blow in here (I never saw the ignominious Richard post(s)) but practically everybody here is generally very empathetic and respectful in my perception. I know damn well what 'mansplaining' is and don't need to have it explained to me <sic!>, and it's an annoying habit at best (and yeesh, I can put up with someone like that for a few hours, but would not want to live with someone who does that continuously) but - that there are folk like that does not justifiably give license to tar every bloke who has a different opinion with the 'mansplaining' brush. In fact I see the latter as worse ... the former is some idiot talking out of his arse, the latter is a veiled, passive aggressive ad personam attack when used in this manner. I can discredit you at any moment by painting, what you are saying, as 'mansplaining', discussion closed. Have a good day. Cut you off at the knees. You ought to feel like shit now and aren't you ashamed of yourself? "Have you stopped beating your _____ yet?" petrushka said (this and much more) "Have you stopped beating your _____ yet?" Really? You really needed to add this kind of vitriol to prove your point? You didn't think that I or someone reading this post might find your statement offensive? Some have offered the opinion that we should not go ticked off and bent out of shape and should wait a day, and calm down before writing something in anger we may later regret. I have done so before writing this reply. And I will have four more additional days to calm down further as I am going out of town. But reading the posts again I can say I am not done with this thread. Or rather, I am done with all but one. This is not a threat, just my admission that something needs to be said. I believe in an eye for an eye and tit for tat, and to be fair I will give back only in the same tenor of criticism that which is being afforded me, which judging by many of your past posts petrushka 'Scorched Earth' is your motto. So here is what I see: (1) You can somehow explain the "Have you stopped beating your ________ yet" in a way that I do not deem it as an ad hominem attack. (2) You can edit your post and take it out, or for that matter restate anything else you want to say, be it to defuse or ignite, your call. (3) You can choose to do nothing. The tone of my reply when I get back will be determined by what I read in everybody's posts. Who knows I may read them and feel nothing needs to be said.
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Post by petrushka on Sept 25, 2016 18:24:31 GMT -5
@wingman : this is a misunderstanding -- in NO way was I trying to get at you with that line "have you stopped ...." ( I have edited the offending post)
I was using it as an example for how insidious it can be for someone to slap a label like 'mansplaining' on somebody else's contribution, when they don't agree with what the other has to say. Or let us say I was trying to use it as an example, but apparently did not express myself clearly enough. As unmatched suggested, so is slapping the label 'hysterical' or 'hormonal' on something a woman says whom you don't agree with. It kills the discussion. It permits no valid retort. The term may be used as a valid description of something most all of us will have experienced (if as participant or bystander) - but it can also be a sexist ad personam attack, or used to kill a contributor. ***** By the bye - that phrase 'have you stopped beating your wife yet' has no connotation for me, not having grown up in America. I kind of have an intellectual knowledge of the fact that it's considered to be an insidious attack, but nobody here would take it that way. If you said it to me, I'd say 'I never have beaten anyone since I was 12' and shrug. Same as I don't get the connotations of "your mother wears army boots". Just w.t.f. is that supposed to say or signify?
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Post by petrushka on Sept 25, 2016 18:26:59 GMT -5
I wonder why I can't get @wingman to stick as a 'tag'. It always reverts to lower case and does not show up as tag. Odd.
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 25, 2016 20:19:40 GMT -5
FYI, the line "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" is an entrapping question (and implied statement)... If you say "yes", then you're admitting to having beaten your wife previously. If you say "no", then you're still doing it.
I don't recall if it was made famous by a standup routine (like 60's era) or from a movie.
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