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Post by petrushka on Apr 11, 2016 11:00:57 GMT -5
Control issues are not just about one person controlling {or trying to control} another person.
In most cases control issues come from a feeling of helplessness, a fear of catastrophe, a will to avoid pain. NOT in all cases, but in many, many cases I've observed.
Coming out of the fucked up family I grew up in I was so much in control ... that is, I could not safely live genuinely, I could not safely utter my thoughts, show my emotions, because everything would get distorted, twisted and thrown back at me in a negative way. That control was so strong, I could not feel emotional responses from other people for years and years. It was like I was a corpse buried under a thick layer of ice ..... or they were.
It took me years and years to unlearn that. I was 24 before I had learned to unwind to the point where I could {let myself} experience an orgasm, le petit mort. What I'd had before were mere sneezes of ejaculation, with no rapture at all.
Every time the shit hits the fan, I have to watch myself carefully not to revert, not to grasp for control and clinch it to my chest.
I am one of the lucky ones, I ended up in therapy groups in my mid-teens, purely by chance because someone decided I might one day make a good social worker. That got me a start out. Most people with issues like these never, ever, even become aware of the fact that they HAVE issues. When they see their paddle floating away down the river they react in the one way they know.
The irony is, that this grasping for control achieves the exact opposite of what's intended. It destroys relationships, it destroys any chance of genuine happiness. The more intent that person is on control, the more intractable they are, the more unhappy they are and the more their behaviour escalates in ways that make everybody else unhappy. Well, maybe with the exception of the ones who maintain control by walling themselves in. I've met two women in my life that were completely walled in and several men. It is completely out of their hands. They cannot break out. They are in a shell as hard as a macadamia nut, unhappy inside, and cannot let themselves out. Control gone out of control. Imagine building yourself a survivalist bunker from the outside in and forgetting to put in the door. I am, sadly, married to one of those two women. {le sigh}
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Post by Dan on Apr 11, 2016 11:02:42 GMT -5
Maybe it seems obvious that a person willing to hurt their partner by withholding sex has control issues, but I always thought it was an intimacy issue, not a control one. I waffle on this one (concerning my refuser spouse). I don't generally consider her a "control freak". But she is definitely an "uptight mom" and sometimes an "uptight employee" (at her work place). She talks about how being an adult child of an alcoholic ("ACOA") has lead her to some of these behaviors; OK, I can see the thread that connects them. However, I've never seen the link that she uses sex to "control" my actions. After all, wouldn't that mean more using sex for bargaining? "If you do XYZ, I'll have sex with you." (DC: looking for your input here. You describe your wife as "controlling", but I don't think you ever get the quid pro quo... so in what sense is that "controlling"?) I do see the link from her pessimism and worries to her low libido. At least, she basically admits: "If I'm worried about all that stuff, I don't have the interest/energy/ability to have sex." For, oh, two decades I just said "don't care about that stuff so much; I'd rather have chores undone and have sex with you." It didn't really get through, however. Now her current therapist is making progress with her on this front. Instead of cleaning the kitchen disgruntledly, OR nagging me to nag the kids to clean the kitchen, she'll just let it go. But that doesn't mean she's any more available for sex/intimacy/romance/closeness theses days. Or maybe she is... I've pretty much stopped asking/expecting ANY intimacy. So if this is her "big move" or "big concession" to me... it is feeling like WAY too little, WAY too late.
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Post by DryCreek on Apr 11, 2016 12:05:06 GMT -5
However, I've never seen the link that she uses sex to "control" my actions. After all, wouldn't that mean more using sex for bargaining? "If you do XYZ, I'll have sex with you." (DC: looking for your input here. You describe your wife as "controlling", but I don't think you ever get the quid pro quo... so in what sense is that "controlling"?) I suppose I could describe W as controlling, though it's not about controlling me. She's more about always being in control of herself and keeping her world structured. No, there's zero notion of using sex for trade (even if I've suggested it); for one, that would require talking about sex, which would require admitting that she has sex. That is, she's unable to relinquish control of herself. God forbid she should let animal desires / reactions see the light of day. An orgasm, or even sounds of pleasure are out of the question. It shows up outside the bedroom too - taking a trip without a planned itinerary makes her twitch and squirm with anxiety. Or having plans that get changed. (In contrast, my approach is to have a prioritized list of activities, and just do as much as time allows.) Between us, her behavior can be managed, mostly by limiting what I share. e.g., she couldn't care less about what projects I have planned for the weekend, but if I tell her my plans and then execute differently, I've failed in her eyes. So, my fix has been to stop sharing; she can't be disappointed if she never knew. Keeping her out of the loop isn't the relationship I'd hoped for, but it makes for more peace between us. DC
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Post by misssunnybunny on Apr 11, 2016 14:41:24 GMT -5
My ex is very anxious, and is a micromanager of control to maintain a sense of calm in his life. If there are things he cannot control, it sends him into a tailspin of angst that could sometimes lead to anger. His favorite joke-but-not-a-joke was "My way is the right way. Even if you get the same result but do it different, you are wrong." I constantly struggled with wanting things to be perfect; If I messed up it was the end of the world, but if he did, it was more of an"oops, no big deal.". He complained about everything; the world was always against him. Oh, he was very uptight in bed and seemed that that it could get messy (e-gads, not messy sex!). Not fun having an uptight partner, made that so much less fun and very mechanical after a while; it didn't start out that bad. It has taken me a long time to et that critical voice out of my head, but it has mostly disappeared.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 17:58:34 GMT -5
Maybe it seems obvious that a person willing to hurt their partner by withholding sex has control issues, but I always thought it was an intimacy issue, not a control one. I waffle on this one (concerning my refuser spouse). I don't generally consider her a "control freak". But she is definitely an "uptight mom" and sometimes an "uptight employee" (at her work place). She talks about how being an adult child of an alcoholic ("ACOA") has lead her to some of these behaviors; OK, I can see the thread that connects them. However, I've never seen the link that she uses sex to "control" my actions. After all, wouldn't that mean more using sex for bargaining? "If you do XYZ, I'll have sex with you." (DC: looking for your input here. You describe your wife as "controlling", but I don't think you ever get the quid pro quo... so in what sense is that "controlling"?) I do see the link from her pessimism and worries to her low libido. At least, she basically admits: "If I'm worried about all that stuff, I don't have the interest/energy/ability to have sex." For, oh, two decades I just said "don't care about that stuff so much; I'd rather have chores undone and have sex with you." It didn't really get through, however. Now her current therapist is making progress with her on this front. Instead of cleaning the kitchen disgruntledly, OR nagging me to nag the kids to clean the kitchen, she'll just let it go. But that doesn't mean she's any more available for sex/intimacy/romance/closeness theses days. Or maybe she is... I've pretty much stopped asking/expecting ANY intimacy. So if this is her "big move" or "big concession" to me... it is feeling like WAY too little, WAY too late. Yes, my refuser had other priorities that were more important to him than our sex life. That was what he told me, in almost those words. I posted about this somewhere just a few minutes ago - I am a very undemanding girlfriend or wife. I don't ask for much. In a way, that's bad, because I have trouble asking for things when I really need them. But so many men complain about their wives being demanding, wanting money/a bigger house/kids/constant attention, etc. And I have asked the men in my life for so little. Sometimes I want to talk to those demanding women whose husbands still put up with that, and ask them, "How do you do it? How do you manage to give him so little and get him to give you so much?" Because I couldn't even begin to tell you how much I've loved someone who neglected me.
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Post by unmatched on Apr 11, 2016 18:48:26 GMT -5
Only a few of my friends picked up on it and they're the ones who never spent any time with him so their only exposure to him was my talking about him. This was years ago, before all the trouble - way back when I thought "everything was good except the sex" so I wasn't complaining or badmouthing him, just talking about our life. I was telling some story to my running partner and she looked at me and said, "Does he always have to have his way?" I remember being really stung and a little pissed off. It would have been nice if I could say warning bells went off in my head, but nope. I just thought she didn't understand him. But it was me who didn't see the whole picture. That sounds strangely familiar. And if I am honest I can remember times when I have deliberately told stories about my W (and other girlfriends) in ways which gloss over their behaviour or deny obvious warning signs which were there. I guess I didn't want to look bad but maybe didn't feel I deserved better.
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Post by unmatched on Apr 11, 2016 18:55:35 GMT -5
However, I've never seen the link that she uses sex to "control" my actions. After all, wouldn't that mean more using sex for bargaining? "If you do XYZ, I'll have sex with you." (DC: looking for your input here. You describe your wife as "controlling", but I don't think you ever get the quid pro quo... so in what sense is that "controlling"?) As DC said, I don't think it is necessarily about controlling you. Much of the time I think it is more about someone needing to control his/her environment and emotions in order to feel safe. She wouldn't necessarily need to control your actions so long as she was reasonably comfortable that whatever you did you would always stay within 'safe' boundaries that she felt equipped to deal with. If you started acting crazy (or God forbid excessively emotional) she might start feeling threatened very quickly and try to squish it down quick. (Obviously I have never met her so I am making this up...)
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 11, 2016 19:08:15 GMT -5
Speaking of control issues, my refuser controlling wife actually showed some emotion this weekend, but not in a good way. (The short version) I have been telling/ threatening my 17 yr old to clean his room. My wife claims" , it is no big deal, she sees no problem with it". So why did she block the doorways and corner me when I packed all his clothes, shoes, plates, cups, food, trash, into a bag to be donated? ( I used her same logic against her, the " I don't know what to say?" Or " I don't know how you want me to answer that?... She was angry!)
She grabbed the bag from me till it torn, called for her Daddy to call the police, claimed " I had touched her"! He's half deaf and didn't move. ( plus he is smart to not get to involved)
This reminds me of things I have read and heard in council about a controller, from the book Boundaries: Controllers are isolated. People stay with them out of fear, guilt, or dependency. If there honest, controllers rarely feel loved. Why? Because in there heart of hearts, they know that the only reason people spend time with them is because they are pulling the strings. If they stopped threatening or manipulating, they would be abandoned. And at some deep level they are aware of their isolation.
Manipulative controllers. Less honest than the aggressive controllers, manipulators try to persuade people out of their boundaries. They talk others into yes. They indirectly manipulate circumstances to get there way. They seduce others into carrying their burdens. They use guilt messages. Manipulators deny their desires to control others; they brush aside their own self-centered ness.
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Post by unmatched on Apr 11, 2016 19:14:16 GMT -5
Speaking of control issues, my refuser controlling wife actually showed some emotion this weekend, but not in a good way. (The short version) I have been telling/ threatening my 17 yr old to clean his room. My wife claims" , it is no big deal, she sees no problem with it". So why did she block the doorways and corner me when I packed all his clothes, shoes, plates, cups, food, trash, into a bag to be donated? ( I used her same logic against her, the " I don't know what to say?" Or " I don't know how you want me to answer that?... She was angry!) She grabbed the bag from me till it torn, called for her Daddy to call the police, claimed " I had touched her"! He's half deaf and didn't move. ( plus he is smart to not get to involved) This reminds me of things I have read and heard in council about a controller, from the book Boundaries: Controllers are isolated. People stay with them out of fear, guilt, or dependency. If there honest, controllers rarely feel loved. Why? Because in there heart of hearts, they know that the only reason people spend time with them is because they are pulling the strings. If they stopped threatening or manipulating, they would be abandoned. And at some deep level they are aware of their isolation. Manipulative controllers. Less honest than the aggressive controllers, manipulators try to persuade people out of their boundaries. They talk others into yes. They indirectly manipulate circumstances to get there way. They seduce others into carrying their burdens. They use guilt messages. Manipulators deny their desires to control others; they brush aside their own self-centered ness. Were you really going to throw it all away or were you trying to get his attention?
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 11, 2016 19:25:53 GMT -5
Thanks for caring! Truly! This is an ongoing battle. This instance has dragged out for three weeks. He claims" I cleaned the clothes off my floor", that's not what I've been telling him, all the trash, the shoes on a rack etc... Patiently, calmly, spelling out every little detail. Even with the threat that " I was going to put it in a bag and get rid of it. My therapist has been telling me, you need to follow through. His letter jacket was still on the floor, that I would have saved, but the rest, yea, he dislikes me anyways because I get angry with him playing me like a fiddle. The wife asked me in the middle of our argument, " who's going to buy him all new clothes?" I said "not me, he's been warned!"
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Post by unmatched on Apr 11, 2016 19:59:28 GMT -5
Thanks for caring! Truly! This is an ongoing battle. This instance has dragged out for three weeks. He claims" I cleaned the clothes off my floor", that's not what I've been telling him, all the trash, the shoes on a rack etc... Patiently, calmly, spelling out every little detail. Even with the threat that " I was going to put it in a bag and get rid of it. My therapist has been telling me, you need to follow through. His letter jacket was still on the floor, that I would have saved, but the rest, yea, he dislikes me anyways because I get angry with him playing me like a fiddle. The wife asked me in the middle of our argument, " who's going to buy him all new clothes?" I said "not me, he's been warned!" This is entirely a personal response, so do take it with a large pinch of salt, but for me if you throw the stuff away there is a danger of making yourself looking petulant, reactive and authoritarian, and in a fight with a teenage boy that could serve to create more anger and disdain in him and perversely could make him feel more powerful (if only on the inside). If you instead said you were going to lock it away for 3 months and then he could have it all back, that still makes the point quite strongly but leaves you looking more reasonable and in control, and it also underlines that you are in charge of what happens in your house. My experience of people making big dramatic gestures as parents is mostly not good. They tend to mean different things to the kids than they do to the parents and they tend to drive the family apart rather than create the shift in perspective that I imagine the parent is usually hoping for. My Dad died aged 65 and had still never really forgiven his father for things that happened as a teenager. On the other hand follow through and enforcing boundaries is without doubt very important. And obviously you are living this every day, not me, and I really really don't mean to be telling you you are not doing a good job!
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 11, 2016 20:47:05 GMT -5
I greatly appreciate advice! This was meant to be an attention getter! This is my prodigal son where talking about. He also shares a room with a brother who lived most of his life in an orphanage bed, fighting for a piece of clothing to wear! 90 percent of the floor is covered with his brother clutter. And it was spreading to the rest of the house. It's not like the boy was going to be naked, he's got clothes falling out of his dresser! He also just got a job two days ago. Maybe he should by back his clothes? He is my second oldest, so something's end up as training experiments for the other four. Then there is the lack of communication, from my detached, controlling wife, who believes her ways are the best ways. What happened to all the years of " your father and I agree on this, you will straighten your room, or you will not be allowed to leave until it is done to our satisfaction, you have been shown before, now get it done" how can all that become, in her mind, " it's no big deal, so, who cares?" When divorce happens things will be different in my house. I will most likely be looked at as the bad guy!
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TheBumble
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Post by TheBumble on Apr 11, 2016 21:03:58 GMT -5
So, I don't know. I guess I believe that being passive is not a bad thing as long as I make sure to pay attention to when I'm being taken advantage of. Thats when I need to work hard to move from passive to assertive. That way, I can be direct with others about what I need and I don't resort to being passive aggressive. I struggle with assertive, verse aggressive. I get your point, but in the heat of the moment it is like splitting hairs. Especially when you are being disrespected, ( by teenagers, and your wife) and your authority is being questioned, by the same person who claims, " I want you to be in charge, to take the lead".Worrying about, how I sound, how I come across, can lead to doubt and withdrawal. Right back to passive. I am learning to express myself, stand up for myself, even if I do sound harsh. God knows I've been manipulated for to long. It was maybe the 4th time I tried to address the issue with her.......she wanted to know why I was always withdrawn and seemed angry a lot........I started with, "Like I said last time, I.." and she cut me off and said, "You mean the time you came in and started YELLING at me??!!" I hadn't yelled at all. I was upset and fraught with about every emotion one can have, but I didn't yell.......but she jumped to that before I could get through a sentence.....she KNEW already what was 'wrong'......and that was her way of taking control right off the bat......whatever i said after that was pointless. I also worry way too much about how I'm going to 'look' in her eyes, and how I'm going to 'sound', 'word choices', etc etc etc.........because she has criticized ALL of it at one time or another. But, I need to learn not to give a flying fuck.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 11, 2016 21:22:12 GMT -5
I struggle with assertive, verse aggressive. I get your point, but in the heat of the moment it is like splitting hairs. Especially when you are being disrespected, ( by teenagers, and your wife) and your authority is being questioned, by the same person who claims, " I want you to be in charge, to take the lead".Worrying about, how I sound, how I come across, can lead to doubt and withdrawal. Right back to passive. I am learning to express myself, stand up for myself, even if I do sound harsh. God knows I've been manipulated for to long. It was maybe the 4th time I tried to address the issue with her.......she wanted to know why I was always withdrawn and seemed angry a lot........I started with, "Like I said last time, I.." and she cut me off and said, "You mean the time you came in and started YELLING at me??!!" I hadn't yelled at all. I was upset and fraught with about every emotion one can have, but I didn't yell.......but she jumped to that before I could get through a sentence.....she KNEW already what was 'wrong'......and that was her way of taking control right off the bat......whatever i said after that was pointless.
That's when I used to retreat, but know the pendulum swings to the nit picky defend myself, and stand up for being respected. My knee jerk reaction is, " you interrupted me, again, you show no respect, you won't even let me finish a sentence, you are avoiding the issue again!" By then I loose track of what we were even talking about! ( if you call that talking!)
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 11, 2016 21:39:05 GMT -5
Only a few of my friends picked up on it and they're the ones who never spent any time with him so their only exposure to him was my talking about him. This was years ago, before all the trouble - way back when I thought "everything was good except the sex" so I wasn't complaining or badmouthing him, just talking about our life. I was telling some story to my running partner and she looked at me and said, "Does he always have to have his way?" I remember being really stung and a little pissed off. It would have been nice if I could say warning bells went off in my head, but nope. I just thought she didn't understand him. But it was me who didn't see the whole picture. That sounds strangely familiar. And if I am honest I can remember times when I have deliberately told stories about my W (and other girlfriends) in ways which gloss over their behaviour or deny obvious warning signs which were there. I guess I didn't want to look bad but maybe didn't feel I deserved better. I call that, " happy wife, happy life syndrome"
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