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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 9:41:01 GMT -5
I saw my therapist this week and we were talking about control again. I’m not sure why, but I never saw my STBX as controlling. Part of it was that he was very good at disguising it – he was the youngest of three and the only boy and he learned how to get his way from an early age without being loud or obnoxious about it. His mother would never have put up with him throwing a fit so he learned how to just be quietly stubborn until people gave in.
Our entire relationship, people perceived him as the “easy-going” one, but the truth of the matter is that it was always me who was agreeable. I can’t think of a single time when I wanted to do something different from what he wanted and ended up getting my way. He projects a persona of easy to get along with and relaxed. Honestly, it was one of the things I found attractive about him. It took years for me to realize that he always, always gets his way.
My divorcing him has brought his control issues out into the light. There’s no hiding what he’s doing now – anyone I talk to uses the words “control freak” to describe him. It made me wonder if control issues are common among refusers. Looking through many of the stories here, it seems like a large percentage of refusers have control issues beyond the sexual ones. I also wonder if a lot of them are/were skilled at hiding those control issues.
Maybe it seems obvious that a person willing to hurt their partner by withholding sex has control issues, but I always thought it was an intimacy issue, not a control one. I thought the sexlessness was about him not wanting to be touched (by me anyway) and not wanting to let me in emotionally. It’s taken years and putting a little distance between us for me to see that in my case at least, he has a huge issue with control. No wonder he’s freaking out now that I’m stepping out from under it.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 8, 2016 9:53:14 GMT -5
That is so on target!
Here is a summary that a friend gave me, I think you will appreciate it.
You have become everything that your wife wanted you to be.She doesn't like what she created, and she blames you for it!
Double bind, again ( damned if you do, and damned if you don't)
On a positive note," we have seen the light"! Now comes the part of picking up the pieces, and not falling into that trap again. Take ground, find your joy!
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 8, 2016 10:04:40 GMT -5
I saw my therapist this week and we were talking about control again. I’m not sure why, but I never saw my STBX as controlling. Part of it was that he was very good at disguising it – he was the youngest of three and the only boy and he learned how to get his way from an early age without being loud or obnoxious about it. His mother would never have put up with him throwing a fit so he learned how to just be quietly stubborn until people gave in. Our entire relationship, people perceived him as the “easy-going” one, but the truth of the matter is that it was always me who was agreeable. I can’t think of a single time when I wanted to do something different from what he wanted and ended up getting my way. He projects a persona of easy to get along with and relaxed. Honestly, it was one of the things I found attractive about him. It took years for me to realize that he always, always gets his way. My therapist shared with me about another client who, " could never make his wife happy, most of us have a 1 to 10 emotion scale, yet hers stays between 3 to 5. Never getting very upset, or getting very happy!" So when I get emotional to try to get some sort of reaction out of her---- nothing, or she changes the subject and finds something less to try to blame me for. And like you, that was probably looked upon as a good thing when I met her. Confident, not an emotional roller coaster, easy to get along with..etc...while underneath is " the controller!"
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Post by Chatter Fox on Apr 8, 2016 11:03:48 GMT -5
I have been wrestling mentally with the concept of control in regards to my relationship for a while now. More specifically, I have been trying to answer the question "is my wife controlling?". Its a tough thing for me to put my finger on. I certainly have felt controlled. I certainly have felt manipulated as well. Is she controlling? Maybe. ...or maybe I'm too easily controllable and she's on a very typical level on the controlling scale. I mean, after all, isn't everyone a little controlling? Don't we all want our way and don't we all have our own little tricks to get our way? We all want something from our partner. Even doing extra things for our partner in hopes that they will reciprocate our gesture is technically a means of control. Even trying a new way of initiating sex in hopes of turning on our partner is a means to influence the way they behave, which is really what control is. We're all trying to influence our partner to get our needs met on some level. Acknowledging power in a relationship has been a struggle for me. I feel as though power doesn't belong in a relationship. Yet it's there. In every single case. You can't deny it. Its an ugly truth of relationships. So anyway, I'm getting a bit too philosophical maybe? My point is that we are all trying to use our power to get what we need in a relationship to some degree. We are all trying to control the direction of things. The big question is "when is your partner so power hungry that you feel dominated or like you are powerless?". Thats kind of what i believe the essence of what defines what most would consider a "controlling" person. That threshold is highly subjective I would think though. It really depends on how much power you are content with having. I suspect that most people that are content with less power are ones that attract those that are power hungry. I also suspect that my wife is much more power hungry than most and I am much more passive than most. I think that is why we "worked" for so long. Thing is, even the most easy going have their limits... and I've been at mine for a while. For me, I am starting to realize my own power. I am realizing that I can get what I want by simply being more assertive. She doesn't like this and she pushes back to regain ground. She uses anger to control me. Thing is, I have been the one that allowed her anger to control me. Ironically, the fact that I genuinely don't care if she's mad at me anymore helps. I no longer fear her leaving me. I realized that she left me a long time ago. I have nothing to lose, really. She can divorce me if she doesn't like the new me if she likes, it would make my decision making process much easier. The ironic twist is that, once I stopped caring about the fate of the marriage, it got better for me. Her anger is ineffective because it doesn't scare me anymore. I still don't get sex for the most part and when I do, it's not really very satisfying. I do get to do a lot of things I want to do now though. I guess my round about thing is this, I think my wife is a bit power hungry. I think she's also a bit selfish. I also think she is abusive to me when she uses anger to manipulate me. I definitely think that her need to be in control contributes GREATLY to the sexlessness. I believe she sees sex as the ultimate loss of control. I think that is quite possibly THE reason she's not interested. I will probably never know because she doesn't seem the least bit interested in analyzing herself to these depths... and THATS what's going to need to happen to truly fix this. Sorry of I went a bit all over the place there. I got on a roll...
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Post by bballgirl on Apr 8, 2016 11:27:39 GMT -5
In my marriage I was very passive. I did everything for everyone and I was happy to do it. When ex fucked up money with his gambling problem and I would call him out on it. He totally turned it around on me. He got angry, or made me feel bad for him. He'd threaten to leave and somehow I was apologizing and telling him not to leave. Just crazy! He totally played me like a fiddle and I let him because of my own insecurities. Well a few years ago I started getting attention from other men, just friends but it helped my self esteem. It made me see myself differently and then his controlling behavior didn't work anymore. About a month before I told him I wanted a divorce he was complaining about one of the bball dads being too passive and not standing up to the other coach. So I told my ex: some people are just passive people, it's there personality you can't change them and you shouldn't take advantage of them either. I said, "I'm passive why do you think we've been married this long? Another woman would have left you a long time ago". In one ear out the other. Shortly after I filed for divorce.
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Post by RumRunner on Apr 8, 2016 11:48:40 GMT -5
I saw my therapist this week and we were talking about control again. I’m not sure why, but I never saw my STBX as controlling. Part of it was that he was very good at disguising it – he was the youngest of three and the only boy and he learned how to get his way from an early age without being loud or obnoxious about it. His mother would never have put up with him throwing a fit so he learned how to just be quietly stubborn until people gave in. Our entire relationship, people perceived him as the “easy-going” one, but the truth of the matter is that it was always me who was agreeable. I can’t think of a single time when I wanted to do something different from what he wanted and ended up getting my way. He projects a persona of easy to get along with and relaxed. Honestly, it was one of the things I found attractive about him. It took years for me to realize that he always, always gets his way. My divorcing him has brought his control issues out into the light. There’s no hiding what he’s doing now – anyone I talk to uses the words “control freak” to describe him. It made me wonder if control issues are common among refusers. Looking through many of the stories here, it seems like a large percentage of refusers have control issues beyond the sexual ones. I also wonder if a lot of them are/were skilled at hiding those control issues. Maybe it seems obvious that a person willing to hurt their partner by withholding sex has control issues, but I always thought it was an intimacy issue, not a control one. I thought the sexlessness was about him not wanting to be touched (by me anyway) and not wanting to let me in emotionally. It’s taken years and putting a little distance between us for me to see that in my case at least, he has a huge issue with control. No wonder he’s freaking out now that I’m stepping out from under it. I do think that most has controlling issues, and are narcissistic. Not all.... My wife is not the least bit controlling, but just refuses sex because she is not interested, has no drive.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 8, 2016 11:57:55 GMT -5
In my marriage I was very passive. So I told my ex: some people are just passive people, it's there personality you can't change them and you shouldn't take advantage of them either. I said, "I'm passive why do you think we've been married this long? Another woman would have left you a long time ago". In one ear out the other. Shortly after I filed for divorce. Ever since I first was called" passive aggressive" I have felt like I am some kind of lunatic that should be avoided at all cost! Seriously! I have asked my therapist, several times, " explain that to me again?" All this time I thought I was being, selfless, caring, kind, gentle, compassionate, loving, strong, obedient,mature, you know, LOVING!.... Now it's passive? it's great to hear someone else proudly call themselves that! the information I found on " passive aggressive " ( typical refusee looking up info.) was that I was completely wrong in every situation, and should handle things completely different. That you should run the other way from a passive aggressive! then there was the end of the articles, ( the fine print) that we all have these tendencies, from time to time, that it is completely normal! Ain't life fun!
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Post by Chatter Fox on Apr 8, 2016 12:25:40 GMT -5
In my marriage I was very passive. So I told my ex: some people are just passive people, it's there personality you can't change them and you shouldn't take advantage of them either. I said, "I'm passive why do you think we've been married this long? Another woman would have left you a long time ago". In one ear out the other. Shortly after I filed for divorce. Ever since I first was called" passive aggressive" I have felt like I am some kind of lunatic that should be avoided at all cost! Seriously! I have asked my therapist, several times, " explain that to me again?" All this time I thought I was being, selfless, caring, kind, gentle, compassionate, loving, strong, obedient,mature, you know, LOVING!.... Now it's passive? it's great to hear someone else proudly call themselves that! the information I found on " passive aggressive " ( typical refusee looking up info.) was that I was completely wrong in every situation, and should handle things completely different. That you should run the other way from a passive aggressive! then there was the end of the articles, ( the fine print) that we all have these tendencies, from time to time, that it is completely normal! Ain't life fun! I struggle with this stuff too. I'm prone to being passive aggressive. The sad thing is that it's such a subconscious thing at times. I struggle with the whole concept of being passive in general. I tend to like to see those I love happy. It brings me happiness to know that I can bring them happiness. I personally think that's a really good thing. I also see it as simply being loving. For me though, it seems to be such a subtle balancing act between doing things for others versus sacrificing my own needs. Sometimes I don't realize how much I need to stop pleasing others and instead do what needs to be done to take care of myself. When I start to give too much of myself, I get moody and that's when my passive aggressive stuff comes out. So I have had to be diligent in paying attention to my own inner voice and bringing it out into the open when I need to make sure I'm taking care of myself. So, I don't know. I guess I believe that being passive is not a bad thing as long as I make sure to pay attention to when I'm being taken advantage of. Thats when I need to work hard to move from passive to assertive. That way, I can be direct with others about what I need and I don't resort to being passive aggressive.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 8, 2016 12:54:25 GMT -5
So, I don't know. I guess I believe that being passive is not a bad thing as long as I make sure to pay attention to when I'm being taken advantage of. Thats when I need to work hard to move from passive to assertive. That way, I can be direct with others about what I need and I don't resort to being passive aggressive. I struggle with assertive, verse aggressive. I get your point, but in the heat of the moment it is like splitting hairs. Especially when you are being disrespected, ( by teenagers, and your wife) and your authority is being questioned, by the same person who claims, " I want you to be in charge, to take the lead".Worrying about, how I sound, how I come across, can lead to doubt and withdrawal. Right back to passive. I am learning to express myself, stand up for myself, even if I do sound harsh. God knows I've been manipulated for to long.
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Moetse Tau
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Post by Moetse Tau on Apr 8, 2016 13:02:00 GMT -5
I have been wrestling mentally with the concept of control in regards to my relationship for a while now. More specifically, I have been trying to answer the question "is my wife controlling?". Its a tough thing for me to put my finger on. I certainly have felt controlled. I certainly have felt manipulated as well. Is she controlling? Maybe. ...or maybe I'm too easily controllable and she's on a very typical level on the controlling scale. I mean, after all, isn't everyone a little controlling? Don't we all want our way and don't we all have our own little tricks to get our way? We all want something from our partner. Even doing extra things for our partner in hopes that they will reciprocate our gesture is technically a means of control. Even trying a new way of initiating sex in hopes of turning on our partner is a means to influence the way they behave, which is really what control is. We're all trying to influence our partner to get our needs met on some level. Acknowledging power in a relationship has been a struggle for me. I feel as though power doesn't belong in a relationship. Yet it's there. In every single case. You can't deny it. Its an ugly truth of relationships. So anyway, I'm getting a bit too philosophical maybe? My point is that we are all trying to use our power to get what we need in a relationship to some degree. We are all trying to control the direction of things. The big question is "when is your partner so power hungry that you feel dominated or like you are powerless?". Thats kind of what i believe the essence of what defines what most would consider a "controlling" person. That threshold is highly subjective I would think though. It really depends on how much power you are content with having. I suspect that most people that are content with less power are ones that attract those that are power hungry. I also suspect that my wife is much more power hungry than most and I am much more passive than most. I think that is why we "worked" for so long. Thing is, even the most easy going have their limits... and I've been at mine for a while. For me, I am starting to realize my own power. I am realizing that I can get what I want by simply being more assertive. She doesn't like this and she pushes back to regain ground. She uses anger to control me. Thing is, I have been the one that allowed her anger to control me. Ironically, the fact that I genuinely don't care if she's mad at me anymore helps. I no longer fear her leaving me. I realized that she left me a long time ago. I have nothing to lose, really. She can divorce me if she doesn't like the new me if she likes, it would make my decision making process much easier. The ironic twist is that, once I stopped caring about the fate of the marriage, it got better for me. Her anger is ineffective because it doesn't scare me anymore. I still don't get sex for the most part and when I do, it's not really very satisfying. I do get to do a lot of things I want to do now though. I guess my round about thing is this, I think my wife is a bit power hungry. I think she's also a bit selfish. I also think she is abusive to me when she uses anger to manipulate me. I definitely think that her need to be in control contributes GREATLY to the sexlessness. I believe she sees sex as the ultimate loss of control. I think that is quite possibly THE reason she's not interested. I will probably never know because she doesn't seem the least bit interested in analyzing herself to these depths... and THATS what's going to need to happen to truly fix this. Sorry of I went a bit all over the place there. I got on a roll... Whoa! Beeman, you said a lot of what I feel. Below is a post that I stared for EP post, but never finished. I guess it was waiting for this thread. Neuro Linguistic Programming.(NLP) What I know of this, it is a combination of methods used by the practitioner to 'persuade/influence/manipulate' someone into doing, saying, and/or agreeing to something that isn't necessarily in line with that persons wants, but at the time makes enough sense and strikes the right emotional or psychological cords for that person to do, say, and/or agree to that request. Most commonly used in marketing or sales, it increases the chances that someone will buy something, even when not always in their best interest. Also used by con artists to get what they want or manipulate a situation to be in their favor. The after effects of this on the victim include, as in sales, buyers regret. And in the case of being conned, regret in general. Long term this particular type of stress can cause depression and other types of psychological and physical issues. Physical reactions can include nausea, hypertension, and anxiety attacks. For more info: www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mindful-self-express/201205/the-psychology-regretOdd thing is, all of us use it once in a while, we are not always aware of it. We use a small amount to build rapport in a business meeting, and at times just to get along with people in everyday life. However, I would have probably never even known the term had it not been for my wife. One of the things that my wife was proud of and talked a lot about was her study of NLP and ability to use it. I confirmed that she had never used it on me, but I realize now, I do not think she even knows when she uses it. And of course, someone that uses it would not readily admit it. Add to that, she is now a has a communications degree, which includes classes on persuasion. A couple of times since last summer, I have told her I want a divorce and didnt want to be married anymore. Even though I was on the fence, I was definitely falling on the divorce side. I think she latched onto that and began the talks with her end result in mind. Because we have been together so long now, it seems like she has refined her practice, and knows exactly what chords to strum. A few days later, regret sets in, along with a little depression, and nausea and anxiety. The whole "why didnt I keep pushing forward towards what I think I want, instead of allowing myself to be talked into staying?" question comes to my mind, and the above is the result of my thought. Of course, not being prepared for the divorce, and as discussed in another thread on why it is so hard to leave, come into play as well. The confusion and indecision, and back and forth are almost or more frustrating than the sexlessness at times.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 8:51:18 GMT -5
my wife is just selfish and self absorbed. In a way I feel bad for her because she seems so miserable. She is living inside herself. Of course she gets all the sex she wants, which is zero. If I did not want sex and she did, I wonder how it would be. It is all about her.
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Post by unmatched on Apr 10, 2016 21:01:28 GMT -5
Maybe it seems obvious that a person willing to hurt their partner by withholding sex has control issues, but I always thought it was an intimacy issue, not a control one. I thought the sexlessness was about him not wanting to be touched (by me anyway) and not wanting to let me in emotionally. It’s taken years and putting a little distance between us for me to see that in my case at least, he has a huge issue with control. No wonder he’s freaking out now that I’m stepping out from under it. I suspect that most of the time the intimacy issue is a control issue. It is an unwillingness to feel vulnerable or exposed, or to allow things to get 'messy' or 'out of hand' in a way which is felt as potentially dangerous. Keeping sex functional and unemotional is the first step towards doing that, and refusing sex altogether is even more effective. Especially when you have a partner who will let it go on for years and still try to be nice about it. Control freaks are basically all about managing their environment as tightly as they possibly can because they are shit scared of what might happen if they don't.
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Post by JMX on Apr 10, 2016 21:11:57 GMT -5
Agree with unmatched. I think the control is because of the aversion to intimacy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 8:22:33 GMT -5
Maybe it seems obvious that a person willing to hurt their partner by withholding sex has control issues, but I always thought it was an intimacy issue, not a control one. I thought the sexlessness was about him not wanting to be touched (by me anyway) and not wanting to let me in emotionally. It’s taken years and putting a little distance between us for me to see that in my case at least, he has a huge issue with control. No wonder he’s freaking out now that I’m stepping out from under it. I suspect that most of the time the intimacy issue is a control issue. It is an unwillingness to feel vulnerable or exposed, or to allow things to get 'messy' or 'out of hand' in a way which is felt as potentially dangerous. Keeping sex functional and unemotional is the first step towards doing that, and refusing sex altogether is even more effective. Especially when you have a partner who will let it go on for years and still try to be nice about it. Control freaks are basically all about managing their environment as tightly as they possibly can because they are shit scared of what might happen if they don't. You articulated this so well! It describes my refuser perfectly - he's so uncomfortable with anything that doesn't fit in his view of how things should work and he's very rigid about things. Really, his whole family is like that. What is weird is how amazingly well he hides it. I would be willing to guess that not one of his friends views him this way. Only a few of my friends picked up on it and they're the ones who never spent any time with him so their only exposure to him was my talking about him. This was years ago, before all the trouble - way back when I thought "everything was good except the sex" so I wasn't complaining or badmouthing him, just talking about our life. I was telling some story to my running partner and she looked at me and said, "Does he always have to have his way?" I remember being really stung and a little pissed off. It would have been nice if I could say warning bells went off in my head, but nope. I just thought she didn't understand him. But it was me who didn't see the whole picture.
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mathdoll
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The light is getting brighter........
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Post by mathdoll on Apr 11, 2016 9:10:57 GMT -5
It made me wonder if control issues are common among refusers. Looking through many of the stories here, it seems like a large percentage of refusers have control issues beyond the sexual ones. I also wonder if a lot of them are/were skilled at hiding those control issues. .......... Maybe it seems obvious that a person willing to hurt their partner by withholding sex has control issues, but I always thought it was an intimacy issue, not a control one. This is true of my XH. It was only after my divorce that others told me how controlling they perceived him to be.
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